HAHAHAHA...Seems the market glutted, and no matter how much hysteria Obama generates, you CANNOT sell what nobody wants. Another thing killing AR-15 sales is the 14 year old fanboy BS about the AR-15 in 5.56 being a "600 yard battle rifle". Once the real world shooters (as opposed to gamers and SF wannabees) started seeing that the 5.56 ball wouldn't kill a rat at 500 yards from the AR carbine ; The "boom" was over.
The use of 'assault rifle' and 'Assault-rifle' in this little missive shows an alarming ignorance of what an assault weapon actually is. No credibility!
I noticed that in this weeks IWANNA paper here in Western NC that there are a ton of AR-15's of various manufacture for sale. The prices vary widely. There is also a ton of ammo for sale in large quantities. 1000, 1400 rounds or more. All kinds of guns for sale.
I don't know what's prompting people to start dumping all of these things because I firmly believe the day is coming closer when you're going to need them. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Anyone that says the 5.56 sucks so badly that it has NO role is welcome to stand in front of one and take a bullet.
I have plenty of .308s, but 5.56 has its place simply b/c of capacity and weight. Right tool for the right job. One is for longer ranges, one works exceedingly well for close in due to virtually no recoil and capacity/weight.
.22LR may actually be best for what's about to happen in terms of 4GW....a suppressor is easy to make at home with common shop tools and coupled with the already low report....it makes a nice assassin's weapon. You're going to have to get up close and personal....but that may be a better option at times than the 600+ yard head shot.
The AR is a fine rifle, but only if it's from a company that follows or exceeds government specs. This means: Colt, Bravo Company (my favorite), LMT, Daniel Defense, Noveske, and a few others. There are some nasty torture tests of these on Youtube that clearly demonstrate the reliability of the AR. Just keep the bolt and carrier well-lubed and it will work fine.
Be sure to AVOID Bushmaster, Windham, Stag, DPMS, Olympic Arms, and all other "junk" manufacturers. They cut corners with inferior materials and manufacturing, even though their rifles look the same and may run fine during slow fire at the range. When pushed hard (as they would be in an actual gunfight), these rifles have a disturbing tendency to fail.
As for ammo, if you're stuck with 5.56, I recommend M855. It doesn't have the greatest wounding effectiveness, but it will go through the new lightweight polyethylene helmets that will stop even lead-core 7.62x39 at muzzle velocity.
In the meantime, those with the necessary skill and equipment should make it a priority to learn to make AP rifle bullets, preferably in calibers larger than 5.56. A heavier bullet (140 grains or so) in 6.5 mm or .264" caliber containing a hardened steel or tungsten carbide core is especially good for penetrating armor.
Stormtrooper armor continues to be the subject of much research. We need to be prepared to resist the tyrants of the future, not just the tyrants of today!
I think it's a mistake to back away from the term "assault rifle" just because most of these rifles lack a burst or full-auto feature. Yeah, the "fun switch" is technically included in the definition of "assault rifle," but does it really matter? Auto fire from a lightweight rifle is rarely if ever more effective than semi-auto fire, which is why you rarely see US soldiers using FA anymore. They leave it to the belt-fed weapons. Anyone can pull a trigger four to five times per second if they have to; if that's not fast enough, would shooting two to three times as many bullets per second really help? FA is generally a waste of ammo unless you don't know how to shoot in the first place, and it's a great way to end up with an empty magazine at the worst possible time.
More important, it could be argued that by avoiding the term "assault rifle" we're tacitly admitting that civilians shouldn't own combat weapons. But civilians SHOULD own combat weapons. That's what the Second Amendment is about: keeping power in the hands of the general population by keeping combat arms in civilian hands (at least those weapons whose deadly effects can be strictly limited to targeted combatants). And while FA fire may not be as useful as controlled, rapid semi-auto fire (at least from a rifle), we citizens have the RIGHT to auto weapons. Instead of arguing that our weapons don't have the FA feature, we should be demanding our right to have that feature (in addition to other weapons that are currently illegal for citizens to own).
In response to another poster's claim that an AR in 5.56 can't be used for 600 yard shooting:
It's true that the AR isn't ideal for shooting at that distance, but it is most certainly capable of killing at 600 yards, especially when using heavy bullets like the 77-grain Sierra Match King or the 70-grain Barnes TSX. It's not unusual for an accurized AR with good ammo to hold 1 MOA at 600 yards if the shooter has the skills, and kills have been made at that range and beyond with the 14.5" barrel M4.
Anyone who thinks that the 5.56X45 is a "six hundred yard battle rifle" is beyond stupid. It makes holes in paper at that range , but it's maximum "man killing" range is still exactly the same as it was in 1966- 225 meters. 600 yard HEAD SHOT!!(BULLSHIT). If you are that good you should be out hunting Hajis. The AR/M16 family of weapons was meant to replace the M-1 carbine in service , and nothing more. During the cold war, the published effective range for the 5.56 was 225 yards. The published effective range for the AKM (7.62X39) was 400 yards ( FM 7-8 pub. 1980) The pentagon wanted to "One up the ruskies" so they "tweeked" the M-16 till it could make holes in paper at 500 yards. The whole MYTH of the "Long range M-16 battle rifle" was born right there and then out of cold war propaganda. But the weapon and ammo hasn't changed much. Its still what Gene Stoner came up with in the 50's ; An (inferior) replacement for the M-1 carbine. FYI if anything the effective range of the 5.56 carbine (16 inch or less) is MUCH shorter that 225 meters. For some of the "AR pistols" its UNDER 100 FEET.
You are confused. That "short lethal range" for the 5.56 round is based on the reliable fragmentation range of standard military FMJ rounds. It does NOT apply to the heavier bullets (70-77 grains) mentioned above. These bullets have gotten great reviews from various Special Forces users, who have noted their lethality at ranges way beyond the fragmentation ranges of M193 and M855. Bullets like the 77-grain Sierra Match King are also sub-MOA accurate in a good rifle. They are certainly capable of headshots at 600 yards, and many confirmed kills have been made at such ranges and beyond. This is all open-source knowledge; do some research and learn something.
Where the 5.56 is weak is in hard barrier penetration. It's great at going through soft body armor, and M855 goes through hard polyethylene armor that can stop lead-core .308. But it sucks at going through auto windshields, chest-mounted rifle mags worn by an enemy, and other such hard targets. The Barnes TSX bullets probably do a lot better against those things.
The real "assault" here is upon the English language. "Assault" is a noun or a verb. It is not an adjective or and adverb. Like so many other mythical fabrications, the term assault weapon is a political bastardization of words intended to muddy the waters of words and their definitions.
Properly constructed, ANY firearm can be a "weapon of assault".
The reality is quite simple - government straightforwardly is NOT empowered to ban ANY arms from the hands of We The People. And THAT is what we ALL should and MUST stick to talking about. Being sucked into the "assault weapon" waters only serves the grabbers divide and conquer strategy.
I once shot a four inch group of fifty rounds out of a Compass Lake service rifle with open iron sights at 200 yards. The ammo was on the hot side, home loaded with Varget and 69 grain match kings.
No key holes. All nice round bullet holes.
I'm petty sure it would have been effective at killing at 400 yards and extremely dangerous out at 600.
Last year, I broke in a new Rock River carbine with a two inch group at 100, also using just the iron sights. The guy shooting next to me commented "who needs a scope when a person can shoot like that".
You guys knock the AR at your own peril. Anytime you want to see if I can hit you out at 600 yards with an open iron sighted AR carbine, just let me know. Better have your affairs in order. I'm pretty damn good at 'Kentucky Windage and elevation'.
The range at witch your 5.56 pet load will make holes in paper is utterly meaningless. The ONLY thing that matters in ANY WAY is the maximum range your weapon will consistently achieve a killing shot. USMC and US Army after action reports show that ALL 5.56 ammunition is inconsistant for killing people at ranges above 350 yards. I noted that the "fanboy" comments all came from target shooters and people who don't have to kill with military ammo. In other words people who don't have a clue what the AR15 will or won't do in the field with ball ammo. There ARE hand built AR-15 style rifles , with thousand dollar 'scopes that use hand made match ammo, that WILL make a shot on a cantaloupe size object at six hundred yards. It won't kill consistently at that range ,but it WILL hit. But your AR-15 carbine with ball ammo IS NOT one of those rifles. Everything else is childish fanboy bullshit.
The US military spec for M855, that's green-tip 5.56mm ball ammunition, requires that it be able to perforate--that is, punch through both sides of--a Warsaw Pact (or US) steel helmet at 800m, from the 18" barrel of a SAW. A round of M80 7.62x51mm ball won't do that at such range, from the 22" barrel of an M-14.
That's a fair bit better than "punching paper." And it doesn't even require AP characteristics--true enough that 855 has a steel forward core section, but it's mild steel, no more AP than the core of Chinese 7.62x39.
American forces overseas have employed 77gr BTHP match ammo in designated marksman rifles to get kills out as far as 800m in Afghanistan.
Anyone who thinks that 7.62x51mm will perform at distance and that 5.56mm will somehow bounce off or be ineffective at the same range, assuming comparable bullet configuration and a competent shooter, is deluded.
The reason the AR market's prices are coming down so fast is simply the convergence of panic ebbing, supply surging, and an economy that remains weak, including real employment. It has nothing to do with people realizing the imagined shortcomings of the cartridge.
The main "fanboy bullshit" going on here is the 5.56mm-hate being spewed by people who are clinging to a contra-factual idea of ballistics that's been discredited for decades, one that relies primarily on romantic quasi-nostalgia for its underpinnings.
He probably actually thinks that a .308 is so vastly superior that he can't fathom 5.56 may be better in some cases.
Take for example, the fact that 5.56 M193 (plain 'ol 55 grain lead core) will punch through Level III AR500 ballistic plate out of a 20" (and shorter) bbl'd AR when a .308 will not.
M193 punches through what M855 (so called "steel core penetrator") cannot in this instance. It's simply a physics and velocity thing.
16 comments:
"For years, Mainstreet Guns & Range couldn’t sell assault rifles fast enough." (Bolding mine)
I could use a deal on a select fire AR platform rifle. $15,000 for a transferable is a little steep for me.
HAHAHAHA...Seems the market glutted, and no matter how much hysteria Obama generates, you CANNOT sell what nobody wants. Another thing killing AR-15 sales is the 14 year old fanboy BS about the AR-15 in 5.56 being a "600 yard battle rifle". Once the real world shooters (as opposed to gamers and SF wannabees) started seeing that the 5.56 ball wouldn't kill a rat at 500 yards from the AR carbine ; The "boom" was over.
The use of 'assault rifle' and 'Assault-rifle' in this little missive shows an alarming ignorance of what an assault weapon actually is. No credibility!
I noticed that in this weeks IWANNA paper here in Western NC that there are a ton of AR-15's of various manufacture for sale.
The prices vary widely. There is also a ton of ammo for sale in large quantities. 1000, 1400 rounds or more. All kinds of guns for sale.
I don't know what's prompting people to start dumping all of these things because I firmly believe the day is coming closer when you're going to need them. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Anyone that says the 5.56 sucks so badly that it has NO role is welcome to stand in front of one and take a bullet.
I have plenty of .308s, but 5.56 has its place simply b/c of capacity and weight. Right tool for the right job. One is for longer ranges, one works exceedingly well for close in due to virtually no recoil and capacity/weight.
.22LR may actually be best for what's about to happen in terms of 4GW....a suppressor is easy to make at home with common shop tools and coupled with the already low report....it makes a nice assassin's weapon. You're going to have to get up close and personal....but that may be a better option at times than the 600+ yard head shot.
The AR is a fine rifle, but only if it's from a company that follows or exceeds government specs. This means: Colt, Bravo Company (my favorite), LMT, Daniel Defense, Noveske, and a few others. There are some nasty torture tests of these on Youtube that clearly demonstrate the reliability of the AR. Just keep the bolt and carrier well-lubed and it will work fine.
Be sure to AVOID Bushmaster, Windham, Stag, DPMS, Olympic Arms, and all other "junk" manufacturers. They cut corners with inferior materials and manufacturing, even though their rifles look the same and may run fine during slow fire at the range. When pushed hard (as they would be in an actual gunfight), these rifles have a disturbing tendency to fail.
As for ammo, if you're stuck with 5.56, I recommend M855. It doesn't have the greatest wounding effectiveness, but it will go through the new lightweight polyethylene helmets that will stop even lead-core 7.62x39 at muzzle velocity.
In the meantime, those with the necessary skill and equipment should make it a priority to learn to make AP rifle bullets, preferably in calibers larger than 5.56. A heavier bullet (140 grains or so) in 6.5 mm or .264" caliber containing a hardened steel or tungsten carbide core is especially good for penetrating armor.
Stormtrooper armor continues to be the subject of much research. We need to be prepared to resist the tyrants of the future, not just the tyrants of today!
I think it's a mistake to back away from the term "assault rifle" just because most of these rifles lack a burst or full-auto feature. Yeah, the "fun switch" is technically included in the definition of "assault rifle," but does it really matter? Auto fire from a lightweight rifle is rarely if ever more effective than semi-auto fire, which is why you rarely see US soldiers using FA anymore. They leave it to the belt-fed weapons. Anyone can pull a trigger four to five times per second if they have to; if that's not fast enough, would shooting two to three times as many bullets per second really help? FA is generally a waste of ammo unless you don't know how to shoot in the first place, and it's a great way to end up with an empty magazine at the worst possible time.
More important, it could be argued that by avoiding the term "assault rifle" we're tacitly admitting that civilians shouldn't own combat weapons. But civilians SHOULD own combat weapons. That's what the Second Amendment is about: keeping power in the hands of the general population by keeping combat arms in civilian hands (at least those weapons whose deadly effects can be strictly limited to targeted combatants). And while FA fire may not be as useful as controlled, rapid semi-auto fire (at least from a rifle), we citizens have the RIGHT to auto weapons. Instead of arguing that our weapons don't have the FA feature, we should be demanding our right to have that feature (in addition to other weapons that are currently illegal for citizens to own).
In response to another poster's claim that an AR in 5.56 can't be used for 600 yard shooting:
It's true that the AR isn't ideal for shooting at that distance, but it is most certainly capable of killing at 600 yards, especially when using heavy bullets like the 77-grain Sierra Match King or the 70-grain Barnes TSX. It's not unusual for an accurized AR with good ammo to hold 1 MOA at 600 yards if the shooter has the skills, and kills have been made at that range and beyond with the 14.5" barrel M4.
Anyone who thinks that the 5.56X45 is a "six hundred yard battle rifle" is beyond stupid. It makes holes in paper at that range , but it's maximum "man killing" range is still exactly the same as it was in 1966- 225 meters. 600 yard HEAD SHOT!!(BULLSHIT). If you are that good you should be out hunting Hajis. The AR/M16 family of weapons was meant to replace the M-1 carbine in service , and nothing more. During the cold war, the published effective range for the 5.56 was 225 yards. The published effective range for the AKM (7.62X39) was 400 yards ( FM 7-8 pub. 1980) The pentagon wanted to "One up the ruskies" so they "tweeked" the M-16 till it could make holes in paper at 500 yards. The whole MYTH of the "Long range M-16 battle rifle" was born right there and then out of cold war propaganda. But the weapon and ammo hasn't changed much. Its still what Gene Stoner came up with in the 50's ; An (inferior) replacement for the M-1 carbine. FYI if anything the effective range of the 5.56 carbine (16 inch or less) is MUCH shorter that 225 meters. For some of the "AR pistols" its UNDER 100 FEET.
Anonymous at 6:32. Most of your points are incorrect.
If you really think the 5.56 hasn't evolved dramatically since 1966, you have a lot of catching up to do.
Good luck.
Anonymous @ 6:32,
You are confused. That "short lethal range" for the 5.56 round is based on the reliable fragmentation range of standard military FMJ rounds. It does NOT apply to the heavier bullets (70-77 grains) mentioned above. These bullets have gotten great reviews from various Special Forces users, who have noted their lethality at ranges way beyond the fragmentation ranges of M193 and M855. Bullets like the 77-grain Sierra Match King are also sub-MOA accurate in a good rifle. They are certainly capable of headshots at 600 yards, and many confirmed kills have been made at such ranges and beyond. This is all open-source knowledge; do some research and learn something.
Where the 5.56 is weak is in hard barrier penetration. It's great at going through soft body armor, and M855 goes through hard polyethylene armor that can stop lead-core .308. But it sucks at going through auto windshields, chest-mounted rifle mags worn by an enemy, and other such hard targets. The Barnes TSX bullets probably do a lot better against those things.
The real "assault" here is upon the English language.
"Assault" is a noun or a verb. It is not an adjective or and adverb. Like so many other mythical fabrications, the term assault weapon is a political bastardization of words intended to muddy the waters of words and their definitions.
Properly constructed, ANY firearm can be a "weapon of assault".
The reality is quite simple - government straightforwardly is NOT empowered to ban ANY arms from the hands of We The People. And THAT is what we ALL should and MUST stick to talking about. Being sucked into the "assault weapon" waters only serves the grabbers divide and conquer strategy.
I once shot a four inch group of fifty rounds out of a Compass Lake service rifle with open iron sights at 200 yards. The ammo was on the hot side, home loaded with Varget and 69 grain match kings.
No key holes. All nice round bullet holes.
I'm petty sure it would have been effective at killing at 400 yards and extremely dangerous out at 600.
Last year, I broke in a new Rock River carbine with a two inch group at 100, also using just the iron sights. The guy shooting next to me commented "who needs a scope when a person can shoot like that".
You guys knock the AR at your own peril. Anytime you want to see if I can hit you out at 600 yards with an open iron sighted AR carbine, just let me know. Better have your affairs in order. I'm pretty damn good at 'Kentucky Windage and elevation'.
The range at witch your 5.56 pet load will make holes in paper is utterly meaningless. The ONLY thing that matters in ANY WAY is the maximum range your weapon will consistently achieve a killing shot. USMC and US Army after action reports show that ALL 5.56 ammunition is inconsistant for killing people at ranges above 350 yards. I noted that the "fanboy" comments all came from target shooters and people who don't have to kill with military ammo. In other words people who don't have a clue what the AR15 will or won't do in the field with ball ammo. There ARE hand built AR-15 style rifles , with thousand dollar 'scopes that use hand made match ammo, that WILL make a shot on a cantaloupe size object at six hundred yards. It won't kill consistently at that range ,but it WILL hit. But your AR-15 carbine with ball ammo IS NOT one of those rifles. Everything else is childish fanboy bullshit.
AIM Surplus has stripped lowers for $40-$55. Stock up now.
No affiliation.
Anonymous on 9/1/14 at 7:27.
Your information is sadly incorrect.
The US military spec for M855, that's green-tip 5.56mm ball ammunition, requires that it be able to perforate--that is, punch through both sides of--a Warsaw Pact (or US) steel helmet at 800m, from the 18" barrel of a SAW. A round of M80 7.62x51mm ball won't do that at such range, from the 22" barrel of an M-14.
That's a fair bit better than "punching paper." And it doesn't even require AP characteristics--true enough that 855 has a steel forward core section, but it's mild steel, no more AP than the core of Chinese 7.62x39.
American forces overseas have employed 77gr BTHP match ammo in designated marksman rifles to get kills out as far as 800m in Afghanistan.
Anyone who thinks that 7.62x51mm will perform at distance and that 5.56mm will somehow bounce off or be ineffective at the same range, assuming comparable bullet configuration and a competent shooter, is deluded.
The reason the AR market's prices are coming down so fast is simply the convergence of panic ebbing, supply surging, and an economy that remains weak, including real employment.
It has nothing to do with people realizing the imagined shortcomings of the cartridge.
The main "fanboy bullshit" going on here is the 5.56mm-hate being spewed by people who are clinging to a contra-factual idea of ballistics that's been discredited for decades, one that relies primarily on romantic quasi-nostalgia for its underpinnings.
Ignore the anon poster at 7:27....
He probably actually thinks that a .308 is so vastly superior that he can't fathom 5.56 may be better in some cases.
Take for example, the fact that 5.56 M193 (plain 'ol 55 grain lead core) will punch through Level III AR500 ballistic plate out of a 20" (and shorter) bbl'd AR when a .308 will not.
M193 punches through what M855 (so called "steel core penetrator") cannot in this instance. It's simply a physics and velocity thing.
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