-----Original Message-----
From: georgemason1776
To: jmoon
Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:28 am
Subject: Historical and military illiteracy (or is it amnesia?) is no excuse for unconstitutional proposals that can spark another civil war.
Mr. Moon,
After reaction to your recent column advocating, among other unconstitutional things, government permission to purchase ammunition by way of an ID requirement, you made this ridiculous statement:
"I'm not pushing to have guns banned, but at the same time, you've got to admit, there's a pretty big difference between a right to bear arms when both sides have muskets and cannons and a right to bear arms when you've got a handgun and the government has heat-seeking missiles. You're not scaring away the big, bad government with your .38. If Uncle Sam wants to come in and take your stuff, there's not much you can do about it."
Try it and find out. There is in fact no difference at all. Were you not so apparently historically and militarily illiterate you would know that. For a modern example, ask the Taliban. Or, better yet, consult the Founders who faced down the greatest empire in the world in their time in a ridiculously lop-sided David vs. Goliath contest. David won, though you apparently have not internalized that fact.
In actuality, what you are saying here (beyond some Borg-quisling mewling of "resistance is futile") is that if the federal government comes to take YOUR stuff there's not much YOU will do about it. Having established your own cowardice, you extrapolate that to your fellow citizens. Big mistake. Other people, "bitter clingers" to use Obama's phrase, will die for a deeply held principle even if you would not. They will also, by extension, kill for it. And thinking that the natural, inalienable and God-given rights which are merely described in the Second Amendment can be negated without consequence by the back-door means of restricting the ammunition supply is dangerous, even deadly, hallucination. Trying to prevent random street killings by sparking a civil war is, well, not only ironic but vastly stupid.
Insofar as the illiterate estimation of the balance of forces of your proposed American civil war is concerned, let me explain. Hypothetically, to use your construct, a heat-seeking missile may be defeated by a man with a .38 by the following time-tested means:
a. Not being there when the heat-seeking missile lands.
b. Killing the skilled operator of the heat-seeking missile while he's sitting in an off-base bar knocking back beers.
c. Shooting the driver of the truck carrying the missile to its launcher, stealing the enemy's missile and using their own weapon on them.
d. Best of all, putting the .38 up beside the head of the politician who ordered the missile fired and pulling the trigger, evacuating his brains all over the wall of the elevator as an example to the next tyrannical moke who wants his job.
Twelve years ago or so I wrote an essay entitled, What Good Can a Handgun Do Against an Army? In it I explored the theory and practice of the Liberator pistol, a cheap, inaccurate .45 single shot pistol that we parachuted to resistance groups behind enemy lines in World War II. You would do well to study that, as well as the general concepts of Fourth Generation Warfare, Last but not least in terms of your personal interest as an opinion purveyor, consider Bill Clinton's 1999 rules of engagement (ROE) versus the Serbians. You may recall that he changed American military ROE to include the politicians, media and the opinion purveyors who laid the intellectual underpinnings of the enemy's war effort and, having done so, expressed his enthusiasm for the new policy by dropping precision guided munitions -- your "heat seeking missiles" -- into the windows of the homes of politicians as well as Serbian radio and television.
Extrapolating Clinton's ROE through the lens of the unrepealable and iron-clad Law of Unintended Consequences, I would lastly urge you to consider the Chinese admonition: "Be careful what you wish for, for you may get it."
Sincerely,
Mike Vanderboegh
The alleged leader of a merry band of Three Percenters.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com
PO Box 926
Pinson, AL 35126
43 comments:
Let's not forget this often ignored (purposefully?) little statement of undeniable if inconvenient to some, fact: http://blogs.redding.com/bross/archives/2010/12/the-worlds-larg.html
Ever hear of guerilla warfare, idjit child? The Afghanis stood off the Soviets for years with their guns and guerilla tactics, and I daresay that we in the U.S. have plenty of room to use said tactics. Read "Unintended Consequences", by John Ross.
Since the OpFor doesn't trust their gate-guards (TSA, NG's, Border Patrol, Customs & immigration, etc.) with weapons or actual ammunition if they are carrying a weapon for image purposes, a motivated fresh man with a Liberator or 2 is BETTER armed than a sleepy hung-over trooper packing a short plastic M4 (no rounds issued).
Insurgents who expect to take rifles of the enemy had better arrive with loaded magazines in pocket ready to load and charge. Intel needed as to what exactly those weapons are.
I might speculate that the person saying such things about the .38sp has never even seen a shot animal, let alone hung out in a big city emergency room or morgue. .38sp (even cheapest FMJ) is effective when used correctly. It's no coincidence that most inner-city shootings are with cheaper rounds up to about 9x19mm. Those folks don't have a lot of money for .50AE pistols or fancy ammo to waste making noise for territorial intimidation purposes. They use what works and is cheap: .22LR/.25Auto/.38sp fmj bulk reloads, 9x19mm and some formerly- exotics like 9x18mm or 7.62Nag if available. With a little training/discipline all of these are deadly, fortunately both are lacking among wayward children in Portland.
Portland Mayor Sam Adams is one of the unconvicted Mayors Against.....(poor people having defensive) Guns. Got bike paths, "sanctuary city" and "homeless warming centers"? Si, si puede!
Still, the rain is nice here.
Cheers.
There you go, Mike! Absolutely.
"The Sound of Music" was on last night. When Herr Zeller is telling Captain von Trapp that he WILL accept a command in the Nazi navy, I got so angry I shook. When von Trapp sings "Edelweiss," the national song of the Austria where "nothing has changed" but which no longer exists, I cried. When HitlerYouth Rolf betrays the family in the monastery graveyard ... after I took the Luger away, I would have given him two in the chest using his body as a suppressor.
What if the crowd at the music festival -- and throughout Europe -- had stood as one and said to the Nazi "escort" waiting for von Trapp "Oh, no, you won't"?
So much unpleasantness could have been prevented.
I have no problem with Serbian media rules of engagement. I wonder how many people listen to Authorized Journalists anyway. They're on the way out. Well, a little slower now, since Big Giov is going to censor the Internet. But if talking is no longer permitted, there are other ways to send a message.
thanks, mike. good to see you back, and in top form.
I like to think that the only way theLeviatian will get away without a scratch (at my personal level) is by a Friday the 13th surprise. And considering everything, how well can Big Gubment keep a secret?
Thank you for all you do.
B Woodman
III-per
Awesome response. Trying to educate a fool is not an easy matter, either.
Well said, as always. :)
If the Nazi thugs had met with violent resistance every time they went to collect an "undesirable" the nazi's would have quickly run out of men willing to go on their midnight raids. Men like Michael Collins took it a step further and badly frightened the British government. When it becomes a case of "personel" danger these decision makers and order givers become the cowards they are very quickly. They find it very easy to order someone else to go in harms way, but when it comes to their own precious skins, well thats different. No, Mike, you are right and any moke who thinks differently had better pull his head out of his orifice.
Paul in Texas
Damn straight Mike!
only they won't listen or having listened they won't understand... Not until it is too late.
BTW.... Can one be a(n) Sipsey Street Irregular without ever seeing Sipsey Street? If not I can settle for being one of the III%
Excellent.
Superb!
The fire still burns.
Oddly enough, I recently saw an advertisement for a modern reproduction of the Liberator pistol. Two major differences were that the repro has a rifled barrel to get around the smoothbore BATFE restrictions and the asking price was somewhere around $600. Naturally my response was a resounding WTF. Though I'm sure somewhere someone with entirely too much money will buy one just for the historical significance. Personally, I'd be more inclined to gather the materials and make my own were I suddenly possessed with a burning desire to own one.
Heh! I wonder whether a study was done in choosing the cal. .45 over other available pistole rounds. Was this the .45 ACP? An inquiring mind would like to be enlightened.
Thanks Mike and Merry third day of Christmas.
If the government is not afraid of my .38 the why am I forbidden to carry it into the White House?
Three million lone wolf "deer hunters" with scoped rifles, shooting .308 rounds at 600 meters can do a lot of damage. Those poor dumb bastards just don't get.
http://www.vintageordnance.com/
They are remaking it, for $599
Lot of money, but there must be enough collectors out there..
Please read....Mike, I'd love to see you do a post of THIS:
http://www.americanfreedombybarbara.com/2010/12/mexicans-can-skip-airport-security.html
I would...but words have absolutely failed me.
Okay...not ALL words, I have obscenities in 3 different languages that might start to express my feelings...
A recurring theme in the comments is microstamping or even microCHIPPING of casings and projectiles.
I forget which Communist country it was that kept typed samples from all typewriters leaving the factory, so they could identify freedom pamphleteers and liquidate them. Probably all of them.
Criminals would just switch to sawed-off shotguns at close range. It's a felony to have one, but if you're in the murder business anyway... Little traceable ballistic evidence, no shells ejected from double-barrels, and a brass catcher is simple to improvise for pumps and semi-autos.
I think victims would rather Moon not try to "help" them.
Annon @ 5:29,
Six hundred yards?
The .308 (and .303, .30-40 .30-06 etc) with a decent bullet are all good for at least ANOTHER 600 yards after that.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/ballistics-kolbe-on-long-range.html
Stick in a plastic sabot and a turned steel .22 bullet or even better a tungsten one (EDM electrode stock) and there's a 4,000 fps steel plate perforator par excellence.
An opponent may have more rounds and lots of body armour, but you can make him sweat and chafe in it for a long time before he gets within his own range of where you once were.
up close? Charlie Q's screwdriver and Mike's daughter's Biro are as good as a dagger.
Nice picture. I got 2 of those in mint condition given to me by my grandfather. He was in the OSS back in WW2.
I'm tired.....
Have any of you actually approached the idea that you're gonna have to shoot Earl, the deputy that you throw a hand up to at the morning coffeeshop stop?
How about throwing a .308 round at the mayor when he's got his hand on his office door at 9:00 in the morning?
Any of you ready to travel to the state capital to seek out appropriate hides?
And don't forget firemen.....county tax collectors...appraisers.....and others who work in your AO.
The point I'm trying to make here is that those of you who advocate making war on the government had better get used to the idea that the killing of your neighbors is included in that strategy. Choosing to take a life is a personal act. Can YOU punch a hole in someone you know who has done no harm to you personally simply because he works for a governmental agency? That is gonna be included in this thing. And if you're not ready to accept that fact and pay the cost to your soul that goes along with it?
Then you need to stop talking.....
Future Marshall Tito of Yugoslavia, then a key leader of the resistance to the Germans, was asked during WW2 how his men, armed only with old rifles, could defeat the Germans and their new Panzers. His response:
"When the Germans get out of their new Panzers to take a piss, my men will shoot them with their old rifles."
This illustrates a very simple and ancient principle: don't fight your enemy where he is strong. It is as simple as that. If some interested people do what MV's folks in the story about taking on an army with a single-shot .45 were advised to do: use that simple weapon to get a rifle, some ammo and maybe a grenade or 2. Use those to get several rifles, more ammo and more grenades, and maybe a SAW. Use those to ambush a small convoy and get more interesting stuff including probably a crew-served machine gun or two and some shoulder-fired AA missiles. Not bad when starting with only a single-shot .45.
Even if only 1% of the population really resists, such numbers (upwards of 800,000 people) will be far more than the current force on all levels can handle. And as others have noted, if resistance includes going after those who give the orders, the conflict will be over sooner rather than later. It is for this reason that nothing overt has ever been tried before.
@ Defender:
"I forget which Communist country it was that kept typed samples from all typewriters leaving the factory, so they could identify freedom pamphleteers and liquidate them. Probably all of them."
Romania. Note how that SOB Nicolae Ceauşescu ended up [for those that don't know, he was their Communist dictator, and ended up on the wrong end of a firing squad on Christmas Day, 1989 along with his wife].
The question is not whether we are willing to die to be free. The question is whether or not you are willing to die to oppress us.
It is the very height of burlesque to hear a bunch of beer-bellied, arthritic, middle-aged guys who couldn't do ten pushups if their lives depended on it and who couldn't make it through the week without their nightly six pack and Internet porn talking about "guerilla warfare." You guys against our military? Heh. Georgia Tech-Cumberland, 1916. Only worse.
I realize that it would not be a long range weapon, but how effective should these:
http://www.polygunbag.com/.50CalM2-APTipsLargerView.html
be, and should they load properly with these:
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=322RSS
into a 3" 12 gauge hull?
That's about $5K worth of tin you got there, Anon. Good on you.
Earl seems to have changed a little bit. I just watched him put 5 rounds into a man for whittling on a Seattle street corner. No tears for Earl. Sorry.
Anon @09:55
are you a paid troll?
looks like you'r posting from work
Tut tut.
Check out the trouble that 10% of the British armed cops had trying to catch one love struck night club bouncer last summer. he had very little field craft or preparation, and it seems no knowledge of guns.
Google Raoul Moat.
the cops did not perform well on that exercise. They seldom if ever do, anywhere in the world.
Check out the history of how less than 200 mostly local authority housing program dwelling terrorists in northern Ireland kept one of the top 3 armies in the World tied up for decades and with a kill ratio of around 100:1 in the terrorist's favour.
No one I've seen comment here rejoices at the prospect of violence (they're not Godless marxists or nazis), I guess a good few have seen more than enough of it for real in service of their countries and know the sound of a bullet cracking as it goes low over their heads.
Lets all pray that Mike's self appointed task works and we never get to test which scenario is closer to the truth.
Beer and pron, speak for yourself.
For Dick's Dad:
He's probably just taking a break from his job of ginning up false "Law Enforcement" death statistics as reported in Injustice Everywhere:
http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=3542
Once again, this country's "Finest
at their finest!
Anon @8:34 writes: "who has done no harm to you personally"
What could you possibly mean, Earl has done no harm to me personally? He's a walking agent of rights-obliteration, a disaster zone that is not to be talked to for fear of a life-changing kidnapping.
Social Security/Medicare is bankrupt, and it is a joy to see that the evil voters who imposed it all these years will receive a small portion of the punishment they deserve.
The dollar is bankrupt, and it is a joy to see that the evil voters who imposed fiat money all these years will receive a small portion of the punishment they deserve.
The American empire will collapse like the Soviet empire did, and the guilty unprepared parasite voters will receive most of the punishment.
@ anon 9:55
No one here is discussing taking on the army.
What is being discussed is assymetrical warfare and it's effects on the mindset of the people who give the orders to the army.
You might think on this if you could bring yourself to put down the x-box controller.
December 28, 2010 8:34 AM - No one but you has seen fit to even offer up the idea of randomly killing folks just because they happen to be employed by some level of government (you pretty well covered city, county and state).
WTF is wrong with you, Troll? And why would you even suggest such a thing? Perhaps you need to worry about your own self.
Mike, you warn them but are they capable of learning? I know why we must try but I wonder.
For Grumpyunk:
He's just trying to remove the targets from the backs of him and his buddies. Other than that, he don't care WHERE those targets go. MANY in "Law Enforcement" are like that. Thugs with Guns. Only Ones. Make sure you pay them proper respect NO MATTER WHAT they do. After all, it's for your own good!
@ grumpyunk...
Have you read the rest of the posts on this thread? Come to think of it.....did you actually read mine?
The original post referenced a weapon used by freedom fighters against an invading and occupying army.
Just where do you think the members of an occupying force would come from today? Just who do you expect to see through the reticle of that scoped .308? Nazis?....Martians?....Alf?
What are you going to do when Earl and his friends come to your house to collect your weapons under orders from the mayor for the "public's safety"? Your decision will determine the price you pay.
I meant my post to bring home the reality of taking a life and to suggest that a man needs to be sure of where his limits are. I do not in any way endorse or support pre-emptive action. I merely point out that the personal cost to each person needs to be examined under the hard,bloody light of reality before an irrevocable decision is made.
Lord willing...we'll never see the day come when that decision stares us in the face. I pray that we do not...
No more Fort Sumters....
@ grumpyunk...
Have you read the rest of the posts on this thread? Come to think of it.....did you actually read mine?
The original post referenced a weapon used by freedom fighters against an invading and occupying army.
Just where do you think the members of an occupying force would come from today? Just who do you expect to see through the reticle of that scoped .308? Nazis?....Martians?....Alf?
What are you going to do when Earl and his friends come to your house to collect your weapons under orders from the mayor for the "public's safety"? Your decision will determine the price you pay.
I meant my post to bring home the reality of taking a life and to suggest that a man needs to be sure of where his limits are. I do not in any way endorse or support pre-emptive action. I merely point out that the personal cost to each person needs to be examined under the hard,bloody light of reality before an irrevocable decision is made.
Lord willing...we'll never see the day come when that decision stares us in the face. I pray that we do not...
No more Fort Sumters....
Sorry for the accidental double post.
December 29, 2010 12:40 PM - I don't want to use Mike's bandwidth to get in a pissin' contest. To answer your question, Yes, I read it several times.
You, may wish to re-read what you wrote and be more careful next time.
Maybe it was this part- "And don't forget firemen.....county tax collectors...appraisers.....and others who work in your AO." Adding this to the original post would have helped clarify your intent immensely - "I meant my post to bring home the reality of taking a life and to suggest that a man needs to be sure of where his limits are. I do not in any way endorse or support pre-emptive action."
Huge difference isn't it?
Your point on pulling the trigger on another person is valid and something each man would have to decide for himself & I agree with that completely.
Obama adviser says it's time to end the West's "lethal cocktail of liberty and capitalism."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6274387/Obama-adviser-says-Sharia-Law-is-misunderstood.html
Think about the weaselly mayor in "Red Dawn," who helped the Russians and Cubans round up "known troublemakers." In real life, he would have had much less on-screen time, shall we say.
Can YOU punch a hole in someone you know who has done no harm to you personally simply because he works for a governmental agency?
That's an oxymoron. Anyone who works at a government agency has done harm to me personally.
As for your list, yeah, I've thought about Earl in particular. Firemen are going to be very low on the list. Tax collectors and appraisers are going to be even higher than Earl (who's just a low-level tax collector himself at this point.)
D. is the by far best solution to this problem.
It seems to me that confiscating ammo didn't work so well on April 19th, 1775...
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