Walt Kowalski: "Get off my lawn."
Smokie: "Are you fucking crazy? Go back in the house."
Walt Kowalski: "Yeah? I blow a hole in your face and then I go in the house... and I sleep like a baby. You can count on that. We used to stack fucks like you five feet high in Korea... use ya for sandbags."
-- Gran Torino.
35 comments:
Love Gran Torino!
Note to Bank of America:
Todo: Monday
Call in SEIU's loans.
My Karma ran over your Dogma
LOL get out of my head. I knew that was coming.
Nothing against the M1, but for the mob we are all talking about, I'd want more than 8 rounds...
Nice M1 Garand. Effective for 1 to 8 rioters. Obsolete for larger crowds and the ping when it ejects the enbloc clip lets the bad guys know you are out of ammo.
I have one and it is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. However, it is a backup for emergency use as my M1A and AR-15 and Saiga 12 gauge are more effective weapons platforms.
dr richard and anyone else who sees 8 round clips being the downfall of the Garand: please google search buddy team, fire team, and tactics. Lone gunmen (homo sapiens mors praematura) run out of ammo and have to reload. Your team (home sapiens invictus) with at least one partner, your back is covered while you reload.
Guess it's coming back to which gun is better again.
For those of us weaned on M-1's and M-14's, there is absolutely no finer battle rifle ever made. So what if it holds 8 or 18 rds vs. your 30. It's the hits that count and a .30 cal puts 'em down every time. That's why M-1's come with 8 rd clips, ever seen one reloaded by someone who knows what he's doing?
I pity those of you addicted to the AR "poodle shooters". Just when you really need it, you'll be wishing you had a Daisy instead.
I served as a Marine grunt and Recon, later being an armorer. I have used the M-16 for many years and I never again want to see another AR, even the AR-10's are POS. Accurate? Hell yes. Reliable? Not enough to risk my life with. Man up and get a real rifle. Forget about the mag capacity, the more they hold, the worse they get. Oh, I forgot. Some of you have issues with recoil. Maybe a pink AR is the weapon of choice.
Semper Fidelis 0321
.30 cal ball goes thru a good number of bodies before losing effectiveness, so a mob is a perfect target for a powerful semi-auto rifle.
Gunner
Love that movie.
My 2-bits to the gun debate:
SCREW your "Mr. McNamara's Mouse-Popper-Jam-omatic" AR-whatever.
I'll take my M1A Battle Rifle.
THIS is the Bark of Authority, every time it fires it's 20-shot clip .308 glory.
That is my favorite scene from that movie. Thats what that home alone kid should have done when the seiu came protesting.
Nice Garand, good prices too.
But I´ll just stick to my M1-A1.,30cal. 20 or 30 rnd.mags.Accurate and Dependable and the Scout has a Muzzel Brake so no recoil for those that worry about such things.
But for large crowd control a Rem. 1100 or 870 in 12 or 20 ga. with a extended mag tube and buck shot does wonders.
There´s something about a shotgun that´s so intimidating that the confrontation is over before it realy gets started.
Dennis
III
Texas
I would bet I can reload my Garand fast enough some folks would wet themselves. I have an AR, also. Use it for prairie dogs.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi, 0321.
Those pink rifle shooters never saw a mall ninja they didn't like.
The M1 Garand is the finest rifle ever made. Ask the boys at frozen Chosin. Stacked them commies like cord wood. Same at Iwo, Okinawa, Bastogne and thousands of battle fields. Jungles, mountains, winter, summer, desert, short range, long range, it don't matter.
Platform pinkies are a POS.
Semper Fi
Mountain Rifleman
I figure with good shot placement that 147gr FMJBT is good for two or three bad guys each shot. Just line em up, and a crowd is perfect for that. And at close range with a bunch of bangers not used to return fire, the muzzle blast alone would give me plenty of time to slap in another clip.
And wouldn't old Clint make a great Phil Gordon when "Absolved" gets made into a movie!
Hey , all you not-enough-rounds cry babies are forgetting ...shot alignment...one 06' round x4 guys lined up one in front of the other X's 8 = 32 dead ones...that works!
Regards,
cops555
I know nothing of the movie Gran Torino, other than seeing the trailers. Looks like another fine Clint Eastwood film. I like Clint on and off camera.
Having said that, I think it is important to be clear that for deadly force to be used justifiably the only reasons accepted under our system of law are:
IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE THREAT OF GRAVE BODILY HARM OR DEATH.
YOU MUST BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT THE ASSAILANT(S)HAD ABILITY (HE HAD A WEAPON OR IN THIS CASE OVERWHELMING NUMBERS), OPPORTUNITY (CAPABLE OF EMPLOYING THE POWER TO KILL/MAIM), JEOPARDY (ACTING IN SUCH A WAY AS TO MAKE A REASONABLE AND OTHERWISE PRUDENT PERSON BELIEVE HE/THEY INTENDED TO KILL OR CRIPPLE).
This is not a Hollywood movie. Unless someone is threatening death or grave bodily harm you had best not pull out your favorite blaster and start shooting. You will go to jail! You will be convicted of murder.
As distasteful as these commies are and as wrong as it is for them to be on your private property, and as cowardly it is of the police not to enforce the law respecting your private property, you do not have legal grounds to brandish a firearm let alone start killing people.
To quote Col. Jeff Cooper USMC,
"We adopted the 223 cartridge, I am told, because a soldier can carry a lot more 223 ammunition than he could 308. Somebody pointed out that if you are stuck with a 223 cartridge, you need a lot more ammunition."
Semper Fi, 0321
To Anonymous @ 11:54,
Just what we need, another fucking lawyer.
If we can use muzzle blast as an added deterrent and time-buyer for reload, let's throw in the Mosin Nagant. Only 5 rounds before reload, but the shock and awe effect of the blast (plus the damage a 147gr steel core does) oughta work pretty well for crowd control.
I once shot in a a CQB match where a fellow brought an M1, shortened, braked and rechambered for 7.62 NATO. He must have been practicing like a ninja because he could reload that sucker before I had a magazine out of the pouch. He had to do it more than twice as often, but he was definitely more than twice as fast.
It was the first time it occurred to me that there might be at least one advantage to that self-ejecting clip, no matter how much it rings.
Two thoughts -
One for "Anonny" 11.54 = after the Olofson rulings, and the Kalifornia gestapo murdering a woman in her own home the other day, you may need to update your paradigm of "legal" actions. Menace a child in his own home, pay the price.
Two - as for any of the bad guys hearing your clip eject from your M1 after the eighth round:
Has anyone here ever been in combat and found an enemy hearkening to the sound of M1 clips pinging? Anyone whose hearing has not been pretty well shot, temporarily, by the rather louder sounds of gunfire and muzzle blast?
In an urban setting, I personally doubt that after the third shot, anyone would still be close enough to hear anything. Even such gutless bastards as the idiots of SEIU and the pig escorts, would have enough semblance of a brain stem to start diving for cover or else running away and wetting their panties at the sound of gunfire.
Interesting to see where this thread went, but since we're on it...
Seems us old Marines still love our M-1's and M-14's.
The newer desert war Marines seem to think their M-4's are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but very few of them have shot anything else except what they are issued. So how would they have anything to make a comparison with. And the propaganda that goes with this wonder weapon of shock and awe. I will admit it is a sexy flashlight holder. Weighs more than an M-14 with all the cool accessories. And still won't kill effectively beyond a 100 yds.
Another weapon I have absolute love for is the AK, lots of close up power and reliability. For those of you on a small budget, take a serious look at a 7.62x39 AK. Just look at it as a Russian 30-30.
Semper Fi 0321
Law "advice" guy: depends on the state you're in. I'd venture to guess that in Maryland, there is no castle doctrine, so you couldn't do anything to anyone regardless of the amount of real, immediate threat to your life. In states with a castle doctrine, you could turn heads inside out all day in a situation just like this one, provided that no one is shot in the back.
To all the old farts stroking themselves over the M1; do we really need to go there?
If we are to continue to suffer flooding, stacks of illegal alien bodies would at least put their worthless carcasses to good use. Then we could send the remains out to sea; sharks are on the endangered list, after all!
To Anon@2:07,
This is about a picture of a guy holding an M-1 rifle, so I guess us old farts will continue to admire a tool from our youth.
I don't know anything about you, but I would guess by your remark, you must be a mouse gun shooter. Fine.
But to those of us that used an M-1 or still own one, it's a thing of beauty and function. Like a fine woman, it has pleasing lines and still turns us on. So allow us to indulge in our fantasy world and you may go back to your plastic guns elsewhere.
I will guess that you are a little bent by my thrashing of these newer plastic subcaliber firing devices. I was just venting my own frustration that a younger generation of shooters can't really appreciate what a real battle rifle was like. Please take the time to shoot some of the older weapons and get a feel for something besides a .223 plastic lightweight assault weapon. Do some long range shooting under crappy conditions and you will suddenly find that this isn't a perfect gun range scenario where everything works like it should. Put a couple hundred rounds downrange, get wet, muddy, covered in sand, crawl through the surf, over a few dunes and then pull the trigger. It may not even go click, or it will fire once and then you have a $1500 flashlight holder in your hands. At this point you can now stab someone with your new assault flashlight mounted on the handguard, since the weapon no longer works. (actually happened to me, had to drive bolt carrier out with a mallet).
I'll stick to an M-1, you younger fellas can have your plastic wonder with the 200 rd. drum mags. What's still so hard to understand is this fascination with a cartridge that's not even legal for deer hunting in most states, and you want to shoot bad guys with it? Good luck.
Semper Fi, 0321
This is the same anon you are addressing.
Technically, it's about getting someone off your lawn.
More to the points, however. I can appreciate all firearms, but there is a time and a place for everything. You can justify your out-of-place over-appreciation for your ridiculously outdated firearm with all the appeals to emotion you like, it still doesn't change the fact it is not ideal for our circumstances. Though clearly any firearm is better than none.
I don't know what your problem with superficial plastic (the working parts of any firearm being metal), but as opposed to the quasi-fudd wood rifle you hold, it will not rot or warp. You can also affix many things to it, other than the flashlights you seem to be so fixated on. Please attempt the same with your M1!
Now, you seem like an intelligent man, so you can look for all of the many, many ballistic performances of the 5.56 NATO round. Please get this idea that bigger bullet caliber = BETTER THAN. If you are so convinced that it won't drop a man, please, feel free to volunteer to be shot by one if you believe it will do you no harm. I, for one, don't want to be shot with even a .22LR.
You don't know what I or any of the younger guys shoot. In this strictest sense, this doesn't matter, since the vast majority of rifles that most of us (and when I say "us", I mean all us patriots) are toys. Very few fit into the compelte and total collapse of society type firearms.
The fact of the matter is that if you consider a rifle such as the M1 Garand to be the thing that gets out out of a long-term civil war scenario, you are going to eat those words. It is a rifle built around the concept of massed, line infantry. It is too long, too unweildy, and too outdated to serve as the choice in a modern war scenario. I don't care how well any rifle works, how well it is built, and so on (and the M1 is certainly a quality rifle), if time has passed it by, it doesn't matter.
In short, the M1 isn't a bad rifle, but it is outdated because things have changed around it. Infantry fighting (if even such a concept in the losest terms can exist in a modern war) in massed lines, with artillery and air cover, is not what our side will be doing in any conflict. In modern wars, even involving state-actors on both sides, have engagement ranges within 400 meters or less. Now there are rifles that can reach out and touch people from a mile away, but would every person in a fireteam need to carry one (or would they from a practical standpoint)?
Additionally, I think the bad rap people tend to associate with the 5.56 is the prevalence of 16-inch barrels in the civilian AR-15 market (and the much shorter ones in the military). With a proper 20-inch barrel, you will see a drastic improvement in ballistic performance.
Part 2 below (was too large of a post to be accepted)
You don't know what I or any of the younger guys shoot. In this strictest sense, this doesn't matter, since the vast majority of rifles that most of us (and when I say "us", I mean all us patriots) are toys. Very few fit into the compelte and total collapse of society type firearms.
The fact of the matter is that if you consider a rifle such as the M1 Garand to be the thing that gets out out of a long-term civil war scenario, you are going to eat those words. It is a rifle built around the concept of massed, line infantry. It is too long, too unweildy, and too outdated to serve as the choice in a modern war scenario. I don't care how well any rifle works, how well it is built, and so on (and the M1 is certainly a quality rifle), if time has passed it by, it doesn't matter.
In short, the M1 isn't a bad rifle, but it is outdated because things have changed around it. Infantry fighting (if even such a concept in the losest terms can exist in a modern war) in massed lines, with artillery and air cover, is not what our side will be doing in any conflict. In modern wars, even involving state-actors on both sides, have engagement ranges within 400 meters or less. Now there are rifles that can reach out and touch people from a mile away, but would every person in a fireteam need to carry one (or would they from a practical standpoint)?
Additionally, I think the bad rap people tend to associate with the 5.56 is the prevalence of 16-inch barrels in the civilian AR-15 market (and the much shorter ones in the military). With a proper 20-inch barrel, you will see a drastic improvement in ballistic performance.
(part 3 below)
This is the same anon you are addressing.
Technically, it's about getting someone off your lawn.
More to the points, however. I can appreciate all firearms, but there is a time and a place for everything. You can justify your out-of-place over-appreciation for your ridiculously outdated firearm with all the appeals to emotion you like, it still doesn't change the fact it is not ideal for our circumstances. Though clearly any firearm is better than none.
I don't know what your problem with superficial plastic (the working parts of any firearm being metal), but as opposed to the quasi-fudd wood rifle you hold, it will not rot or warp. You can also affix many things to it, other than the flashlights you seem to be so fixated on. Please attempt the same with your M1!
Now, you seem like an intelligent man, so you can look for all of the many, many ballistic performances of the 5.56 NATO round. Please get this idea that bigger bullet caliber = BETTER THAN. If you are so convinced that it won't drop a man, please, feel free to volunteer to be shot by one if you believe it will do you no harm. I, for one, don't want to be shot with even a .22LR.
(Part 2 below, post was too large)
I, for one, don't understand the fascination with inappropriate, outdated, fudd looking guns that you have to defend because you "grew up with them" or have some sort of other ridiculous emotional justification with does not add a single bit of lethality to your weapon. Get with the times.
Finally, what about ammo? You think you're going to live off the .30-06 ammo you can stockpile? If things really get bad, let's just say we're going to have plenty of 5.56, 7.62 NATO, .50BMG, 9mm (You're a .45ACP guy, I take it?), .40S&W, and sporradic availability of things like 5.7x28, 7.62x39 (civilian stockpiles only, I can't see the Russians inventing a time machine so their army of the late 60s can move in), .338 Lapua, and maybe .300 Winchester Mag. Among the fringes of that, that's where you'll find .30-06, 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, .30 carbine, and all the other bitter-clinger old man rounds. Maybe you'll get more than the 5.45 guys, but that's about it.
You think this division does us good? Are you the kind of guy who justifies legislation against the evil black rifles? We stand together or we don't stand at all.
Cliff notes:
Get off this "real man's" gun nonsense.
What will you do when a part on your Garand breaks? And believe me, things break, no matter how simple or well made a rifle is. Where will you get spare parts? Are you going to bring it to a gunsmith in a the middle of a civil war? The modularity of the AR platform means that it can be repaired in the field, and spare parts are almost everywhere. That's nothing to say of the fact that burst and full-auto fire can had with the simple swap of a lower receiver from a fallen federal. What will you do with your Garand then? I suppose it will make a handy club.
Larger magazines means less need for reloading in a firefight. Seems pretty simple for me.
The reason it is illegal for deer hunting (and I'd venture to guess in only certain states) can largely be arbitrary (some state have minimum bullet caliber laws irrespective of anythng else, perhaps the most extreme example is that certain African countries require .375 or larger bullets, which would eliminate the .338 Lapua, which is more than powerful for even the largest game), to political (they're COP KILLER bullets for DANGEROUS "ASSAULT WEAPONS"! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!), to the fact that it doesn't produce a clean wound channel and is therefore considered to cause some sort of "suffering" because it doesn't "kill quickly". Heck, if we're going on hunting laws, some states require a magazine capacity of no more than two and some have shotgun-only hunting.
(part 4 below)
the M1-A1 .30cal. Rules all others are but imitations.
come rain,sleet or snow sand, mud or shit. Semper Fi
Dennis
III
Texas
HEY, Y'ALL! (Esp Anon with the chip on his shoulder!)
Play NICE, now. I was gonna post about how the FAL is yet another fine rifle, but now I don't wanna start any more shit.
BTW, I like my Light Battle Rifles, the AR's and AK's, as well as my MBR's, the Garand, M1A, FAL, and HK91. (That HK dings the brass, though!) :D
Anyways, please mellow the hell out.
Stating some strong opinions might be fine, but I'll betcha Mike will agree that getting into a pissing match over guns and calibers ain't
helpin' nobody.
Besides, my .338 Lapua will kick all of yer asses! (JUST KIDDING!) :D
OH, the WV is dermin, as in the damned vermin ya OUGHTA be bitching at!
As Walt Kowalski used to say -
"Ain't nothin' as fun as a one-sided pissin' contest carried on by a long winded anonny mouse."
Does they guy think anyone is actually reading the long drivel?
Hoon knows!
Militarily, the more powerful, deadlier, full power .30-06 round is a disadvantage. If you kill an enemy soldier you take out him and annoy one graves registration troop for a few minutes. However if you seriously wound one, it takes four people to care for him.
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