No state has yet instituted so-called universal background checks without criminalizing private gun transfers.
REPEAT: Every place where “universal background checks” have become law, it has also become illegal to sell, give or transfer a firearm to another person without the buyer and seller simultaneously appearing with the gun before a federal firearms licensee, filling-out a Form 4473, and registering the gun and its owner(s) in a state-run database.
This is how all firearms transfers must be conducted in California. And based upon the recently passed legislation, it is also how all transfers will be conducted in Colorado, too. There are simply no whiz-bang, high-tech “Internet Instant Background Checks” that do not involve criminalizing all private firearms transfers.
Also, as Dave Hardy has noted, universal background checks are meaningless without registration.
So whatever Alan Gottlieb thinks he may be doing, his actions are likely informed by ignorance and/or misinformation, because it is impossible to institute universal background checks without also instituting universal registration and forcing all transfers to take place on the premises of an FFL dealer.
Looks like he's planning to 'Give something to get something'......but I personally believe we should follow the Constitution and the "shall not be infringed" language and push for repeal of existing laws rather than capitulating to public pressure on natural rights.
Seems from the above article that most gun owners are okay with the compromise. SAF is treating the background check as a foregone conclusion....I'm not sure that's valid, but selling the compromise this way obviously has lowered the ire of many gun owners and they are going to accept it. I disagree. I don't dislike Gottleib.....but I don't agree with this decision.
Details on That Compromise in Washington: I do not normally reproduce e-mails I receive but am willing to risk sharing this third-party reply to the reports that Alan Gottlieb, of SAF/CCRKBA, has been involved in negotiating a compromise bill for “universal” background checks:
Fact: Washington has had a firearm registry since 1931 for all dealer transactions.
Fact: Current private sales are not recorded.
Fact: Seized guns (dropped charges or false arrest) results in guns not being returned if the gun isn't registered or if they don't have a bill of sale. These people either forfeit the gun or sue to get it back... Major problem.
Fact: if the Democrats control the state in 2014, this bill will pass and ban private sales.
Fact: CPL's are very easy to get in Washington, most people will not sell privately unless the person has a CPL. People may disagree, but this is how things are.
The proposal is to do the following:
1. Shut down the firearm registry for good. All the associated problems with it will go away.
2. FFL sales will simply comply with ATF requirements and that will be all.
3. Private sales will be subject to a background check by telephone to the state police. Approval would not be needed, if it isn't denied for cause, then the transfer is automatically approved. Also, no gun information would be relayed (make, model, serial number, firearm type)... I repeat, no firearm information would be recorded or disclosed. This would also be free of charge.
4. CPL holders would be exempt and the division of licensing would have a website where a private seller can submit the CPL information to see if the license is valid, similar to the Easy Check system the ATF has for dealer licenses.
Gottlieb Adds: First you should know that I do not support Washington House Bill 1588 as it is currently written. My support for a state universal background check bill must include a substantial victory for gun owners that includes, but is not limited to repealing, prohibiting and destroying the current state handgun registration system and the data base of several million records of gun owners and their firearms that include the type of handguns and the serial numbers... There are other inclusions that must be made as well that are good for our rights and freedom that need to be in a final bill to have my support... My guess is that the gun grabbers will not go along with these provisions and kill the bill. If they do the "blood" so to speak is on their hands, not ours. There are other smart, tactical, political and morally justified reasons why I have taken this position that I do not want to make public at this time. We do have enemies and I am not going to telegraph our strategy to them by spelling out our battle plans... --
"Understand from the minute the fight begins that you’re going to take damage. Accept it. (You’ll always suffer more from the idiots and cowards on your own side than from any enemy.) Keep your overall goal in mind above all. Those who swerve to avoid a few cuts and bruises defeat themselves." L. Neil Smith
From the article: “There is no record keeping requirement for the private seller in this bill, the state is not allowed to keep records. Keep records of what? A certificate saying you passed a background check and you are eligible to buy a gun. It never says that you actually bought the gun. It does not (say) which gun."
That would be true only if Gottlieb got everything he wanted in the bill. What's more likely is that he won't get everything he wants; for example, the check may require the gun information to go along with it. Now anyone who believes the state would not store such information, despite what the law says, is incredibly naive. The law does not apply to the ruling class, but only to the peons.
The one good thing that may come of this is pointing Congress at a way of getting universal background checks - by getting rid of 4473's and gun information sent to NICS. In other words it may shore up some very wobbly R's who would then have cover for not supporting universal background checks minus those other changes.
Whether it will be used that way is doubtful. I see the federal level probably keeping gun information and making it universal which is essentially gun registration for all new guns. That means we are back to the black market, and exciting private gun purchases again. Make sure you are armed when you meet that guy in the parking lot...
Gottlieb is a fool if he makes a deal on universal background checks, that will set the precedent for other states to follow!
That’s what happened with the 1968 GCA. Those crime bills were going NO WHERE until Illinois passed the FOID card law and provided the political cover for the passage of the 68GCA!
The Illinois State Rifle Association WROTE the FOID card law because a so called friendly senator told them to write their own laws they could live with!
If Gottlieb opens the compromise door then the law can be EXPANDED!
What the anti-gunner want is for someone to blink and Gottlieb is about to blink!
Remember we were told the laws like the FOID and 68GCA were going to make things better!
Remember, Workman set on the NRA board but never did anything to repeal the 68GCA!
6 comments:
No state has yet instituted so-called universal background checks without criminalizing private gun transfers.
REPEAT: Every place where “universal background checks” have become law, it has also become illegal to sell, give or transfer a firearm to another person without the buyer and seller simultaneously appearing with the gun before a federal firearms licensee, filling-out a Form 4473, and registering the gun and its owner(s) in a state-run database.
This is how all firearms transfers must be conducted in California. And based upon the recently passed legislation, it is also how all transfers will be conducted in Colorado, too. There are simply no whiz-bang, high-tech “Internet Instant Background Checks” that do not involve criminalizing all private firearms transfers.
Also, as Dave Hardy has noted, universal background checks are meaningless without registration.
So whatever Alan Gottlieb thinks he may be doing, his actions are likely informed by ignorance and/or misinformation, because it is impossible to institute universal background checks without also instituting universal registration and forcing all transfers to take place on the premises of an FFL dealer.
Looks like he's planning to 'Give something to get something'......but I personally believe we should follow the Constitution and the "shall not be infringed" language and push for repeal of existing laws rather than capitulating to public pressure on natural rights.
Seems from the above article that most gun owners are okay with the compromise. SAF is treating the background check as a foregone conclusion....I'm not sure that's valid, but selling the compromise this way obviously has lowered the ire of many gun owners and they are going to accept it. I disagree. I don't dislike Gottleib.....but I don't agree with this decision.
Mike,
Here is some more info I found on this:
Details on That Compromise in Washington: I do not normally reproduce e-mails I receive but am willing to risk sharing this third-party reply to the reports that Alan Gottlieb, of SAF/CCRKBA, has been involved in negotiating a compromise bill for “universal” background checks:
Fact: Washington has had a firearm registry since 1931 for all dealer transactions.
Fact: Current private sales are not recorded.
Fact: Seized guns (dropped charges or false arrest) results in guns not being returned if the gun isn't registered or if they don't have a bill of sale. These people either forfeit the gun or sue to get it back... Major problem.
Fact: if the Democrats control the state in 2014, this bill will pass and ban private sales.
Fact: CPL's are very easy to get in Washington, most people will not sell privately unless the person has a CPL. People may disagree, but this is how things are.
The proposal is to do the following:
1. Shut down the firearm registry for good. All the associated problems with it will go away.
2. FFL sales will simply comply with ATF requirements and that will be all.
3. Private sales will be subject to a background check by telephone to the state police. Approval would not be needed, if it isn't denied for cause, then the transfer is automatically approved. Also, no gun information would be relayed (make, model, serial number, firearm type)... I repeat, no firearm information would be recorded or disclosed. This would also be free of charge.
4. CPL holders would be exempt and the division of licensing would have a website where a private seller can submit the CPL information to see if the license is valid, similar to the Easy Check system the ATF has for dealer licenses.
Gottlieb Adds: First you should know that I do not support Washington House Bill 1588 as it is currently written. My support for a state universal background check bill must include a substantial victory for gun owners that includes, but is not limited to repealing, prohibiting and destroying the current state handgun registration system and the data base of several million records of gun owners and their firearms that include the type of handguns and the serial numbers... There are other inclusions that must be made as well that are good for our rights and freedom that need to be in a final bill to have my support... My guess is that the gun grabbers will not go along with these provisions and kill the bill. If they do the "blood" so to speak is on their hands, not ours. There are other smart, tactical, political and morally justified reasons why I have taken this position that I do not want to make public at this time. We do have enemies and I am not going to telegraph our strategy to them by spelling out our battle plans...
--
rremington
Washington State
"Understand from the minute the fight begins that you’re going to take damage. Accept it. (You’ll always suffer more from the idiots and cowards on your own side than from any enemy.) Keep your overall goal in mind above all. Those who swerve to avoid a few cuts and bruises defeat themselves."
L. Neil Smith
From the article:
“There is no record keeping requirement for the private seller in this bill, the state is not allowed to keep records. Keep records of what? A certificate saying you passed a background check and you are eligible to buy a gun. It never says that you actually bought the gun. It does not (say) which gun."
That would be true only if Gottlieb got everything he wanted in the bill. What's more likely is that he won't get everything he wants; for example, the check may require the gun information to go along with it. Now anyone who believes the state would not store such information, despite what the law says, is incredibly naive. The law does not apply to the ruling class, but only to the peons.
The one good thing that may come of this is pointing Congress at a way of getting universal background checks - by getting rid of 4473's and gun information sent to NICS. In other words it may shore up some very wobbly R's who would then have cover for not supporting universal background checks minus those other changes.
Whether it will be used that way is doubtful. I see the federal level probably keeping gun information and making it universal which is essentially gun registration for all new guns. That means we are back to the black market, and exciting private gun purchases again. Make sure you are armed when you meet that guy in the parking lot...
Gottlieb is a fool if he makes a deal on universal background checks, that will set the precedent for other states to follow!
That’s what happened with the 1968 GCA. Those crime bills were going NO WHERE until Illinois passed the FOID card law and provided the political cover for the passage of the 68GCA!
The Illinois State Rifle Association WROTE the FOID card law because a so called friendly senator told them to write their own laws they could live with!
If Gottlieb opens the compromise door then the law can be EXPANDED!
What the anti-gunner want is for someone to blink and Gottlieb is about to blink!
Remember we were told the laws like the FOID and 68GCA were going to make things better!
Remember, Workman set on the NRA board but never did anything to repeal the 68GCA!
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