The reach on hunting rifles and anything chambered for larger rifle calibers sure outdoes 5.56 and the like, that's for certain. What does it matter if the bad guy has a 30rd magazine if he can't touch you as far away and still have good terminal performance? 30-06 truly is a wonderful homeland defense caliber.
I'd love to have a Garand that still shoots straight. I don't care how ugly it is...just as long as it shoots straight and shoots all eight rounds without jamming up.
I love the Garand. Of the many different weapons I am privileged to to get to shoot, the M1 is one of my favorites. Unfortunately for me, as I do not have the arms of a steelworker, I can only get through one ten round clip with any accuracy at all if I am shooting while standing or on the move. My right arm starts to shake about halfway through the second clip and I have to give it up. But it is a beautiful weapon that doesn't get talked up nearly enough and it is kikk ass. Just wish they weren't so darned heavy.
I really don't get why the M1 Garand keeps getting brought up as a comparable weapon to modern firearms. Sure, it's reliable and fires a big round, but it's outclassed by modern firearms. It's difficult to mount optics to, accurize, or lighten. Ammo capacity is limited with no way to top if off. For the fire power and effective range it provides, it's long and heavy.
I agree with the tactic of longer range engagements and heavier rounds for irregulars, but engagements at ranges beyond 300 meters are going to be rare in most of the United States. With the proliferation of mechanized infantry in every country and the availability of air support to regular forces, I think ballistic superiority at 400 meters with a MBR isn't worth giving up magazine capacity or modularity.
Anonymous 1, If the enemy is in range, so are you with ANY iron sighted rifle. Anonymous II, Garands are known for their reliability. If yours jams, find an armorer that understands them to correct the problem, or feed it better ammo. Female III; The Garands weight is part of why their recoil is easily managed. That said, they weigh about 10 lbs, just 3 lbs more than the usual sporting rifle without a scope. 3 lbs ain't much. Time to go to they gym.
Female III makes an excellent point. Some shooters have trouble with the Garand's size and weight. My 5'2" daughter had trouble controlling mine as the day progressed at an Appleseed. Remember pictures from the mid 1960's of ARVN troops with WWII gear including steel pots that they couldn't see out from under toting Garands that looked bigger than they did?
Get an MBR that you can lug around and shoot well all day. Then take it to an Appleseed and learn all the bad habits you really need to correct. Then take the Appleseed paperwork and use it to buy as many Garands as your budget permits from the CMP because at some point they will all be gone and you will be kicking yourself for not getting a few more. Then practice, practice, practice. Your goal is to shoot well enough in a tactical environment as your gear is capable of. 80% of American shooters are not there. Note I did not say 80% of Americans. I said 80% of American shooters. This sad fact has been revealed time and time again with the first target fired at every Appleseed. EVEN IN TEXAS! One would think Texicans could shoot. One would be mistaken. Bottom line is, if you can't put 20 rounds into the black at effective tactical ranges (up to 500 yds with your Garand) IN 60 SECONDS, then your Garand is better than you are, and you have work to do!
Do not wait until TSHTF to work on your marksmanship. You may not survive long enough to see any improvement.
I hesitate to push products on my web posts, but Dutchman6 and others often recommend gear they found to be of value. I strongly suggest you check out Fred's ad in Shotgun News or visit his site at www.fredsm14stocks.com and get one of his target sets which include his "Guide to Becoming a Rifleman". If you have been to an Appleseed you are familiar with these and know how difficult yet helpful they are. For the rest of you, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU WAITING FOR!
It's my understanding the CMP exists to keep the civillian populance trained in marksmansip with military pattern weapons specifically as a last line of defense for the homeland.
Of course that view of the role of the civillian ended around the time the Garand went out of sevice which is why you don't see M-14s or 16s available (even converted to semi-only to comply with the NFA).
The very fact the CMP survives at all as our society has become more and more hoplophobic is a marvel to me.
If you have a garand keep it and use it. I have the Springfield m1a1 in 308 and I love it. There are plenty of after market things to add on if you need them. The recoil is light and twenty five rounds will create a lot of long range h311. I also. Have a socom16 for close in heavy hitting.
A Garand is definitely not something to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
I owned and shot a Garand for 10 years. I also competed with it in the Service Rifle divisions of local DCM/CMP matches. It was a "beaut" as the saying goes. This thing could hit out to 600 iron with some practice with standard ball. I loved it, but I sold it to finance what I considered a serious "Homeland Defense Rifle."
For those considering an 'off the shelf' Garand, know that the standard for service rifle practical accuracy is 10 rounds in a 6 inch circle at 100 yards (old school military requirement) and that's what most Garands you find today (with a very, very few exceptions) are capable of inherently. That's 18 inches at 300 meters. The thoraxic cavity on an equipped person is considered to be about 20 inches by 18 inches. You're not going to hit much beyond that, and as everyone knows, it's hits that count.
So, you know you can get a Garand off the shelf to hit out to 300 or 400, but if you want better, you'll have to pay for the services of a gunsmith to accurize it for you or buy one from a Garand specialist, like Fulton Armory, in which case you need to be prepared to pay a few grand for your Garand.
Point? If you really want to be able to engage at ranges beyond 300 meters, have the capacity for more rounds than 8, not have to worry about picking up clips as they are ejected, not worrying about corrosion on the piston, not worry about muzzle flash, not having someone trying to help you by straightening the op rod, and a myriad of other things you'll go through, get the "product improved" garand. You can still get them for about $1500 to $2,000 for a really nice one, which is about half the price of a Fulton or other Garand specialist's pricing.
Oh...yeah..these product improved Garands go by a different name: M1A or M14 type rifle. Sure, you can pay a few grand for these babies, too, but the proof is in the puddin' as the saying goes.
If you don't have that kind of scratch, get a good FAL for under $1500. I know of one right now going for a grand that is a super rifle.
Top feeder , sorry rather feed the thing from the bottom for obvious reasons. 308, 30/06 doesn't matter. Besides getting a good grade Garand now is ridiculous, thanks BO.
Rack grade M1 with M2 Ball at 4MOA is 20" at 500 yards using irons. With practice, which is what EVERYONE should be doing, it can be reduced to 2-3MOA which translates to 10"-15" at 500 yards. Optics can and will fail. A lighter .30 = more felt recoil. It CAN be accurized via bedding and trigger work. The M1 is all it can be,and then some. I know another rifle instructor who groups 17" at 1000 yards with his M1. Yes, that's 1.7 MOA. If you have time to top off, then there is enough time to eject the <8 rounds to pop in a fresh 8. Some of us 'ol boys cannot get a good steady hold with our elbows under the rifle with a banana mag in the way while in prone. Also while in prone, the profile is lower. That all being said, I rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'm sure I can come up with more reasons it keeps getting brought up as a wonderfull MBR, even with all of the wonderful other options there are to be had.
Throw all those obsolete rifles away. Get a really good poodle shooter that will shoot circles around those crummy M-1's, Springfields and Enfields. Besides, who wants to carry all that heavy corrosive ammo?
The Garand is a legitimate "quarter-mile" rifle. At distances out beyond 100 yards, it completely outclasses AR-15s for penetration and lethal effect.
For a militiaman on a tight budget, the M-1 is better than an FN FAL or HK 91 because the CMP subsidizes its purchase and operation. This makes it easier to find a rifle club where the Garand is used competitively at regularly scheduled intervals.
On balance, money spent on more frequent training is preferable to having a more costly magazine-fed weapon.
MALTHUS
WV: "stedi"---a steady hand counts for more than a tricked-out rifle.
I have owned M1s, M1a1, and FN-FALs they are all good rifles. I have settled on AR-10s as my platoform as it has the advantage of the .308 round, with mag feed and is much easier to put a scope on than the M1s, or M1a1s. That said I love the M1 it is a great round and is very accurate.
Thanks for posting that Dutchman6. I wrote that article a LONG time ago! But I still agree with about 95% of what I wrote. Since 2005 when this was wrote I have had far more opportunities to shoot many MBR "Clones" and most of the time, my opinions were only reinforced. I have fallen for pistol grip Rifles however, the first time I got behind "The Guy's" pistol gripped M1A I was hooked and there are several AR platform Rifles in the family battery today, BUT I stand behind what I said 7 years ago, The M1 Garand has the best bang for the buck, even with today's 2012 prices. So buy one from the CMP now before it's too late! After you buy one, learn how to use it! A perfect place for that is at one of the many upcoming United States Rifleman's Assoc. Clinics.
Serious about owning an M1? Try this. If you can, take a trip to Camp Perry and the National Matches this summer. Go to the CMP and buy an M1 and some ammo then take the rifle to Springfield Armory and have It checked out, they'll replace or adjust anything that needs to be corrected usually while you wait. But time your visit. Call Springfield Armory to find out exact dates. You'll walk away with a mighty fine M1 Garand, and then you can go home and shoot that sucker. Fun fun. But you won't have to sleep with it like I had to. Yup, I'm and old guy been shootin M1s for over 50 years and never had a M1 thumb. Imagine that.
17 comments:
The reach on hunting rifles and anything chambered for larger rifle calibers sure outdoes 5.56 and the like, that's for certain. What does it matter if the bad guy has a 30rd magazine if he can't touch you as far away and still have good terminal performance? 30-06 truly is a wonderful homeland defense caliber.
I'd love to have a Garand that still shoots straight. I don't care how ugly it is...just as long as it shoots straight and shoots all eight rounds without jamming up.
I love the Garand. Of the many different weapons I am privileged to to get to shoot, the M1 is one of my favorites. Unfortunately for me, as I do not have the arms of a steelworker, I can only get through one ten round clip with any accuracy at all if I am shooting while standing or on the move. My right arm starts to shake about halfway through the second clip and I have to give it up. But it is a beautiful weapon that doesn't get talked up nearly enough and it is kikk ass. Just wish they weren't so darned heavy.
I really don't get why the M1 Garand keeps getting brought up as a comparable weapon to modern firearms. Sure, it's reliable and fires a big round, but it's outclassed by modern firearms. It's difficult to mount optics to, accurize, or lighten. Ammo capacity is limited with no way to top if off. For the fire power and effective range it provides, it's long and heavy.
I agree with the tactic of longer range engagements and heavier rounds for irregulars, but engagements at ranges beyond 300 meters are going to be rare in most of the United States. With the proliferation of mechanized infantry in every country and the availability of air support to regular forces, I think ballistic superiority at 400 meters with a MBR isn't worth giving up magazine capacity or modularity.
Anonymous 1, If the enemy is in range, so are you with ANY iron sighted rifle.
Anonymous II, Garands are known for their reliability. If yours jams, find an armorer that understands them to correct the problem, or feed it better ammo.
Female III; The Garands weight is part of why their recoil is easily managed. That said, they weigh about 10 lbs, just 3 lbs more than the usual sporting rifle without a scope. 3 lbs ain't much. Time to go to they gym.
Holbrook Thumbsaver device: http://www.m1thumbsaver.com/
Does anyone have any experience with it? Does it work as advertised?
Female III makes an excellent point. Some shooters have trouble with the Garand's size and weight. My 5'2" daughter had trouble controlling mine as the day progressed at an Appleseed. Remember pictures from the mid 1960's of ARVN troops with WWII gear including steel pots that they couldn't see out from under toting Garands that looked bigger than they did?
Get an MBR that you can lug around and shoot well all day. Then take it to an Appleseed and learn all the bad habits you really need to correct. Then take the Appleseed paperwork and use it to buy as many Garands as your budget permits from the CMP because at some point they will all be gone and you will be kicking yourself for not getting a few more. Then practice, practice, practice. Your goal is to shoot well enough in a tactical environment as your gear is capable of. 80% of American shooters are not there. Note I did not say 80% of Americans. I said 80% of American shooters. This sad fact has been revealed time and time again with the first target fired at every Appleseed. EVEN IN TEXAS! One would think Texicans could shoot. One would be mistaken. Bottom line is, if you can't put 20 rounds into the black at effective tactical ranges (up to 500 yds with your Garand) IN 60 SECONDS, then your Garand is better than you are, and you have work to do!
Do not wait until TSHTF to work on your marksmanship. You may not survive long enough to see any improvement.
I hesitate to push products on my web posts, but Dutchman6 and others often recommend gear they found to be of value. I strongly suggest you check out Fred's ad in Shotgun News or visit his site at www.fredsm14stocks.com and get one of his target sets which include his "Guide to Becoming a Rifleman". If you have been to an Appleseed you are familiar with these and know how difficult yet helpful they are. For the rest of you, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU WAITING FOR!
It's my understanding the CMP exists to keep the civillian populance trained in marksmansip with military pattern weapons specifically as a last line of defense for the homeland.
Of course that view of the role of the civillian ended around the time the Garand went out of sevice which is why you don't see M-14s or 16s available (even converted to semi-only to comply with the NFA).
The very fact the CMP survives at all as our society has become more and more hoplophobic is a marvel to me.
If you have a garand keep it and use it. I have the Springfield m1a1 in 308 and I love it. There are plenty of after market things to add on if you need them. The recoil is light and twenty five rounds will create a lot of long range h311. I also. Have a socom16 for close in heavy hitting.
A Garand is definitely not something to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
I owned and shot a Garand for 10 years. I also competed with it in the Service Rifle divisions of local DCM/CMP matches. It was a "beaut" as the saying goes. This thing could hit out to 600 iron with some practice with standard ball. I loved it, but I sold it to finance what I considered a serious "Homeland Defense Rifle."
For those considering an 'off the shelf' Garand, know that the standard for service rifle practical accuracy is 10 rounds in a 6 inch circle at 100 yards (old school military requirement) and that's what most Garands you find today (with a very, very few exceptions) are capable of inherently. That's 18 inches at 300 meters. The thoraxic cavity on an equipped person is considered to be about 20 inches by 18 inches. You're not going to hit much beyond that, and as everyone knows, it's hits that count.
So, you know you can get a Garand off the shelf to hit out to 300 or 400, but if you want better, you'll have to pay for the services of a gunsmith to accurize it for you or buy one from a Garand specialist, like Fulton Armory, in which case you need to be prepared to pay a few grand for your Garand.
Point? If you really want to be able to engage at ranges beyond 300 meters, have the capacity for more rounds than 8, not have to worry about picking up clips as they are ejected, not worrying about corrosion on the piston, not worry about muzzle flash, not having someone trying to help you by straightening the op rod, and a myriad of other things you'll go through, get the "product improved" garand. You can still get them for about $1500 to $2,000 for a really nice one, which is about half the price of a Fulton or other Garand specialist's pricing.
Oh...yeah..these product improved Garands go by a different name: M1A or M14 type rifle. Sure, you can pay a few grand for these babies, too, but the proof is in the puddin' as the saying goes.
If you don't have that kind of scratch, get a good FAL for under $1500. I know of one right now going for a grand that is a super rifle.
Just an opinion...
Top feeder , sorry rather feed the thing from the bottom for obvious reasons. 308, 30/06 doesn't matter. Besides getting a good grade Garand now is ridiculous, thanks BO.
Rack grade M1 with M2 Ball at 4MOA is 20" at 500 yards using irons. With practice, which is what EVERYONE should be doing, it can be reduced to 2-3MOA which translates to 10"-15" at 500 yards. Optics can and will fail. A lighter .30 = more felt recoil. It CAN be accurized via bedding and trigger work. The
M1 is all it can be,and then some. I know another rifle instructor who groups 17" at 1000 yards with his M1. Yes, that's 1.7 MOA. If you have time to top off, then there is enough time to eject the <8 rounds to pop in a fresh 8. Some of us 'ol boys cannot get a good steady hold with our elbows under the rifle with a banana mag in the way while in prone. Also while in prone, the profile is lower. That all being said, I rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'm sure I can come up with more reasons it keeps getting brought up as a wonderfull MBR, even with all of the wonderful other options there are to be had.
Throw all those obsolete rifles away. Get a really good poodle shooter that will shoot circles around those crummy M-1's, Springfields and Enfields.
Besides, who wants to carry all that heavy corrosive ammo?
The Garand is a legitimate "quarter-mile" rifle. At distances out beyond 100 yards, it completely outclasses AR-15s for penetration and lethal effect.
For a militiaman on a tight budget, the M-1 is better than an FN FAL or HK 91 because the CMP subsidizes its purchase and operation. This makes it easier to find a rifle club where the Garand is used competitively at regularly scheduled intervals.
On balance, money spent on more frequent training is preferable to having a more costly magazine-fed
weapon.
MALTHUS
WV: "stedi"---a steady hand counts for more than a tricked-out rifle.
I have owned M1s, M1a1, and FN-FALs they are all good rifles. I have settled on AR-10s as my platoform as it has the advantage of the .308 round, with mag feed and is much easier to put a scope on than the M1s, or M1a1s.
That said I love the M1 it is a great round and is very accurate.
Thanks for posting that Dutchman6. I wrote that article a LONG time ago! But I still agree with about 95% of what I wrote. Since 2005 when this was wrote I have had far more opportunities to shoot many MBR "Clones" and most of the time, my opinions were only reinforced. I have fallen for pistol grip Rifles however, the first time I got behind "The Guy's" pistol gripped M1A I was hooked and there are several AR platform Rifles in the family battery today, BUT I stand behind what I said 7 years ago, The M1 Garand has the best bang for the buck, even with today's 2012 prices. So buy one from the CMP now before it's too late! After you buy one, learn how to use it! A perfect place for that is at one of the many upcoming United States Rifleman's Assoc. Clinics.
See you all on the trail.
Garand69
Serious about owning an M1? Try this. If you can, take a trip to Camp Perry and the National Matches this summer. Go to the CMP and buy an M1 and some ammo then take the rifle to Springfield Armory and have It checked out, they'll replace or adjust anything that needs to be corrected usually while you wait. But time your visit.
Call Springfield Armory to find out exact dates. You'll walk away with a mighty fine M1 Garand, and then you can go home and shoot that sucker. Fun fun. But you won't have to sleep with it like I had to. Yup, I'm and old guy been shootin M1s for over 50 years and never had a M1 thumb. Imagine that.
RockaBilly
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