Comments on Pro Libertate: "Your Children Are Ours" (Updated, 4/16)

Today, 2/3/09, brings a report by the Associated P...

2009-02-07T20:02:00.000-07:00

Today, 2/3/09, brings a report by the Associated Press to update us about the biggest news event in Texas last year. Remember that Child Protective Services raided a semi-Mormon compound where the men practiced polygamy. There were more mothers than fathers, in other words. They taught the teenagers (male and female) to marry young (horrors!). The big scandal was that several older men, chiefly Warren Jeffs, compelled girls in mid-teens to marry much older men.

The second scandal was this: Though adult men were the only ones who had done anything wrong to some of the children, and all 440 children had mothers on hand who had done nothing wrong to them, still Child Protective Services seized custody of all the children, separating them from their mothers.

Rural Legal Services or a similar legal aid office fought back on the mothers' behalf, then had to appeal. The Texas Court of Appeals roundly rebuked the child welfare agency, and ordered the agency to restore the vast majority of the children to the rightful custody of their mothers.

Today's Headline: "Texas CPS drops custody case involving Jeffs' daughter"
Two sentences stood out to me:
"CPS has now dropped from court oversight all but three of the 440 children taken from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado last April." "CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said child custody cases are dropped when the agency finds that family members will protect a child, even if abuse or neglect previously occurred."

How long did it take for CPS to reach the opinion that "family members will protect a child" ? Well, it takes Many months if you enter presuming guilt rather than innocence -- if you carry the presupposition that everybody (but the children) is guilty until they prove they are innocent.

Thankfully, the news story also points out that the status of child custody cases does not hinder or help the criminal cases pending against a dozen of the adult males who lived in the compound. The criminal justice system is all we need to punish an adult care-giver who criminally mistreats a child in his or her custody; we could do without child abuse hotlines and most social workers. (As long as we have a government-funded foster care program, some social workers are necessary to screen applicants and to monitor and visit foster parents while they are keeping a foster child.)

--George

"Thier are more things between heaven and hell the...

2008-05-12T19:50:00.000-06:00

"Thier are more things between heaven and hell then all of your philosophy ratios" Just to clear things up for you all.... 1st off.... The gov is attacking the churchs dynamics in every level of the country & the world, open your eyes, and see the truth of how the gov, boasts of light yet hides in the shadows, carrying out evil deeds. Hiding suppressed technologies and letting all the rouge factions snatch children and conduct mind control & medication psycho therapy etc. Our children are in danger, this is a battle between light and dark forever this will continue until we unmask the evil that has so deeply penetrated our Once greatly governed country.
Tarhumuk 3:17

Such ingenuous trust in the benevolence of the sam...

2008-05-01T10:31:00.000-06:00

Such ingenuous trust in the benevolence of the same government that runs a Foster Care system in which child abuse -- including rape and murder -- have been proven to be widespread!

The CPS's own "expert" psychologist admitted, under oath, that placing the FLDS children in foster care would be harmful. So we have mere allegations of unspecified abuse at the ranch vs. proven corruption and abuse in the foster system, coupled with the certainty of harm to the abducted children.

So the "compassionate" choice is to seize the kids and gunpoint and put them in a rotten foster care system in which they will inevitably come to harm of some kind.

To minds not crippled by statist assumptions, this makes no sense. The same is true of what the CPS in Texas and elsewhere is pleased to call the "law" -- a constitutionally spurious grant of totalitarian power to fanatical ideologues who can and do seize perfectly healthy and happy children from earnest and loving parents on the basis of entirely subjective decisions. This happens every damn day somewhere in this country, and it has to be stopped by whatever means may be necessary.

Yes, the "law" in Texas permits the government to "protect" children in this fashion, just like the "law" in Nazi Germany permitted Jews to be taken into "protective" custody.

WilliamUnder Texas state law,a child can be and sh...

2008-05-01T10:16:00.000-06:00

William
Under Texas state law,a child can be and should removed from the dwelling if child abuse is suspected.Obviously no one has been charged because of the complications of the cases due to the extreme secrecy of the sect.The CPS had probably cause for removing these children.The state has been "keeping their eye" on the sect for some time due to past allegations of ex-sect members and the odd ritual of coerced minor marriages.Contrary to your statement no one has been punished"yet". Removing these children isn't punishment to the sect but rather protection to the minors.

Anonymous @7:53 a.m. -- You'll have to exercise a ...

2008-05-01T09:00:00.000-06:00

Anonymous @7:53 a.m. -- You'll have to exercise a particle of patience with those of us not blessed with your apparent omniscience. Lesser folks like us tend to believe that government has to prove allegations of criminal behavior before we can inflict punishment on the accused.

And since we've yet to see anyone in the FLDS community charged with abuse, much less put on trial and convicted, people of our kind -- that is, intellectually limited folks who believe in due process -- find it unconscionable for children who have been charged with nothing to be ripped away from mothers who are, at present, guilty of nothing.

Like I said, that perspective is a reflection of our mortal limitations. Obviously a numinous being like yourself, who can infallibly assess guilt in the nearly miraculous absence of evidence, has no need for courts, juries, an adversarial process, or the other components of due process.

What are you people crazy! Yeah, let all those lit...

2008-05-01T08:53:00.000-06:00

What are you people crazy! Yeah, let all those little girls back to the compound so they can be forced into under-aged spiritual marriages with older men.Not only is that unethical it's also illegal! I think these compounds needs to be monitored VERY closely in the future,they need to be held accountable to the state.I would cut my right arm off before I sugest we send these children back to their abusers!

First, it occurs to me that the reported "person ...

2008-04-26T21:00:00.000-06:00

First, it occurs to me that the reported "person of interest," who is known to place fraudulent calls to CPS could not have had a caller i.d. of a 16 year old in El Dorado Texas! I believe the "person of interest," is from Denver. Yet authorities alleged they believed the call came from the compound.

Also, according to the Corpus Christi Caller Times, a local attorney with legal aid, Rebecca Flannigan, has filed an appeal seeking to overturn the lower court's decision to remove the children "en masse," asking instead for individual hearings for these children. Second, also according to Flannigan, CPS has already lost 2 of the children.

Have any of you looked at the FLDS website? Mothers report the children became ill with colds and fever because the air conditioning was so cold in the coliseum holding the children, and CPS had no blankets.

If any of you reside in Texas, please contact your Texas Legislator. Please speak up and let your representative know these actions are not to be tolerated based on a phony call report. This situation is appalling.

Everyone involved in this action should be charged...

2008-04-24T17:01:00.000-06:00

Everyone involved in this action should be charged with kidnapping, illeagle search and child indangerment. Will they come to your house next?

I'm sick of this goverment of ---holes.

This is the FDLS website where you can see what ha...

2008-04-22T18:40:00.000-06:00

This is the FDLS website where you can see what happened INSIDE the compound. They are asking for donations.

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

To R. Weisinger,A fine analysis. You have a wonder...

2008-04-22T15:32:00.000-06:00

To R. Weisinger,

A fine analysis. You have a wonderful mind. I mean that truly. I was not aware of these distinctions between belief systems, and you have increased my knowledge, for which I thank you.

Did you remember today to thank God for that gift of a fine mind? Did you remember to thank Him for the house or other place you live in? For your comfortable bed? For your health? For the rain and the sun and the wind and the trees? For your friends? Did you remember to thank Him for the food you ate, in one of the richest countries on this planet? Did you remember to think a moment about those who did not get enough to eat today, and to recommend them in your heart to God's mercy and compassion?

Or did you pat yourself on the back for this feat of intellectual gymnastics (this is an Olympic year, after all,) and never think of God at all while you were writing it?

Then my friend, you have just tossed a diamond into the ocean.

Personally, I have given up reading religious texts and theological discourses. I find far more joy in relating with my cat, who has taught me more about the nature of God than a whole library of theology. Since I am not blessed with children as Mr. Grigg is, my cat fulfills for me this purpose, but perhaps Mr. Grigg can tell us how much of the Divine he has found in the love of his family.

I hope this strikes a chord within you. If not, never mind. God loves you anyway.

Sincerely,
Lemuel Gulliver.

PS: Doing as Dody suggests, and writing to the Imperium to protest this heinous outrage against morality, justice, and the human family, would be a worthy use of that fine mind of yours. If you attend a church or other social group, getting a number of people to sign your letter would be even more effective. Try it - it will make you feel good, I guarantee it.

"Respect God in your fellow man. Respect God in th...

2008-04-22T14:45:00.000-06:00

"Respect God in your fellow man. Respect God in the nature around you. Respect God in the animals and the plants. Respect God in the rocks and in the stars. And have faith that the God who made all this, including you, knows what He is doing."

Amen. I am a Pagan Naturalist. I believe the same creed as you, however, I seek to be as close to God in the natural world as possible. I believe, as you believe, that all things contain God. However, due to my Wiccan upbringing, I use the Sun and Earth to represent the aspects of God (male and female). Anyway, my point is, people of all faiths can see this for what it is. Kidnapping.

I pray people of all faiths will exercise their rights and end this tyrannical disassembling of the sacred family unit. My religion allows for many wives, husbands, or any variation, although I have yet to meet any who have done this. I believe, children are best served, by staying with the parents God so ordained they should be with. I don't believe anyone of any faith can argue with that!

I also believe that this is the whole sale persecution of a religious minority by the state of Texas. As an American, I am abhorred by their actions, and pray daily that it will be reversed immediately. I don't know about you, but who will they come for next? Who will stop them when they come to your door? These are sad questions that must be asked. If you are afraid of the answers, you must do something now before they show up at your door. Write to the Governor, the legislature, your Congressman, your Senator. Write to the President about how this is wholesale slaughter of the family unit. I pray you do. Blessed Be, Dody

It's not too hard to understand. The worldview Gul...

2008-04-21T21:22:00.000-06:00

It's not too hard to understand. The worldview Gulliver espouses is known as 'panentheism' aka 'Process Theism'. There's a book that compares the worldviews of panentheism with classical theism entitled "The Inexhaustible God" by Royce Gruenler.
Here's a sample of the primary worldviews:

1)Theism: A finite universe (+) an active, infinite personal God. The universe and God are completely distinct. God is both transcendant and immanent. God creates the universe 'ex nihilo'.

2)Pantheism: An infinite Universe (=) an active, infinite impersonal God. The Universe is God. God is immanent, but not transcendant. God is an 'It'.

3)Atheism: An infinite Universe (-)God. No God exists.

4)Panentheism: A finite universe (=) an active, finite impersonal
(1/2)God. The universe is God's body whereas God's soul is the active, infinite and personal other half. The universe is in God. God is both transcendant and immanent. God creates the universe 'ex materia'.

5)Deism: A finite universe (+) an inactive, infinite personal God. The universe and God are completely distinct. God is transcendant, but not immanent. God creates the universe 'ex nihilo'.

6)Polytheism: An infinite Universe (+) many active, finite personal gods. The gods are both transcendant and immanent. Henotheism, a type of polytheism, is the worship of one god while believing that other gods exist. This is the worldview of LDS, i.e. Mormonism.

For now.......
We have the liberty to choose our own worldview. Pick your worldview and live by it, but you must hurry, before the State narrows our choices down to one:
The Civil Religion, i.e. the worship of the State and only the State.
-R. Wiesinger

Mr. Grigg,Here above from Anonymous is an example ...

2008-04-21T15:57:00.000-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

Here above from Anonymous is an example of why America is in deep trouble. Instead of respectfully citing facts and figures about cervical cancer and the industry that manufactures vaccines and puts all kinds of poisons into them in order to save a few cents per shot, (For which they charge $50-$200,) he gets all furious and angry and calls you an "inadequate father."

May I ask him: Upon what known facts do you base your allegation that Mr. Grigg is an "inadequate father?" Have you asked his children what they think? So you trust the Corporatocracy to have your best interests and your children's best interests at heart? Have you ever heard of Thalidomide? Asbestos? Agent Orange? Probably not - you seem to be very young and foolish. Go look them up.

It is because of attitudes like this, which pervade our society to its roots, that we are at war in Iraq and have committed war crimes similar in quality if not in extent to those committed by Nazi Germany. The attitude is, "Why use my brain? Why talk to him? Maybe he will defeat me in argument. Far safer to destroy him utterly, then he will be unable to refute my position."

This is the same attitude of insecurity and bombast that wants to take us to war in Iran.

It is also the attitude of the Spanish Inquisition, Maoist Communism, Guantanamo Bay, Stalinism, Abu Ghraib, Pol Pot, and the murderous regime in North Korea. Fine company for Mr. Anonymous.

Sincerely,
Lemuel Gulliver.

Anon: (the most recent one)The depravity lies in t...

2008-04-21T15:41:00.000-06:00

Anon: (the most recent one)

The depravity lies in the State forcing this vaccine on young girls, regardless of the wishes of the parents, or the girls themselves, for that matter. If it is the parent making the decision, then there is no grounds for objection. BTW, HPV is sexually transmitted, in case you are that ignorant, and I for one teach my girls to be sexually pure before marriage, so the last thing I want is for the gub'mint to tell me I have to inject my girls with this vaccine. Never mind the fact that I already have my doubts about vaccines in general. But then again you sound like most of the other commissars out there who want to force your worldview on everyone else.

This is the most ridiculous commentary I have ever...

2008-04-21T11:51:00.000-06:00

This is the most ridiculous commentary I have ever read. Another moron spouting misinformation to other morons. To call administering the HPV vaccine "depraved" is absurd, I feel sorry for your daughters when they are dying of cervical cancer. You truly are an inadequate father.

All of you,Let me address all of your religious pr...

2008-04-21T09:54:00.000-06:00

All of you,

Let me address all of your religious prejudices. Number one: Every last one of you says there is only one God and He is all-powerful and created everything that exists, and also that He loves His children.

Number two: Then did God make a mistake by creating Satan? Ooops!! Did He make a mistake creating Saddam Hussein or George Bush? Ooops again!!??

Number three: If there is only one God, then who are the Muslims worshipping? Who is Allah? Who is Wakantanka? Who is Brahma? Who is Elohim? Who is The Tao? Who is Satguru? Who is Ahura Mazda? How many "One Gods" can there be?

Number four: If God was in the beginning, and nothing existed but Him, from WHAT substance did He create the Universe? This may be hard for you to understand, but He created the Universe out of Himself. Every blade of grass, every rock, every human, every animal, the seas, the land, and the sky, are all part of God's substance. There is nothing but Him. Including Satan. Satan is of God's substance, but is ignorant of this, as you are. What is sin? Sin is ignorance of our Godliness and wilfully separating ourselves from Him and setting ourselves up, each one of us, as a little Satan in opposition to our loving Creator.

But do not limit Him to your small hearts. God loves even Satan, and even you. What a miracle, and what a good fortune for all of us.

God loves our sins. They are the occasion by which He can exercise His mercy and compassion. See if you can really understand, and see in your heart, how God can love your sin. Then you will feel the beginnings of a proper gratitude to God for His mercy.

And you really think that the schisms and arguments and religious wars and all the shit that happens, happens without His knowledge and permission? You idiots, you are hurting no-one but yourselves, when you try to squeeze God into your limited minds and limited understanding, and imagine God as the image of yourselves. You cannot hurt God, except that when you hurt each other or any sentient living creature, you hurt Him. And thereby, you hurt yourself.

(And this is what Mr. Grigg's article is all about. The minions of the Imperium are grievously hurting babies and small children by tearing them from their mothers' arms, which is a heinous crime, and is creating an anguish and a pain in the heart of God, which is the hearts of all people. Even so, the love and compassion of God can heal even this horror. His compassion and sorrow rests on both the innocent victims and on the perpetrators who are sinning so terribly, because they will have to pay for their sins. That is why God created Satan - as the instrument to make us wise.)

Your arguments about bread and rituals and Calvin and Popes and Nicene Councils and all that rubbish may be amusing for you, but death awaits us all. Stop wasting your time trying to tell God how to run His Universe, and learn awe and love and gratitude, before your life ends, and this opportunity you have been given is taken away.

Another story from Indian mysticism: A fisherman was walking along the beach at night back to his village, and stumbled across a bag of stones. It was pitch dark, so as he walked along, he amused himself by throwing them into the ocean as far as he could. Finally, he came near to his village where there was light, and there was one stone left in the bag. So he took it out to look at it, and found it was a diamond.

Every day of your life is a diamond. Do not throw them away in your darkness of ignorance, because when you come near to the end, you will realize their value and wish you had spent them more wisely.

Respect God in your fellow man. Respect God in the nature around you. Respect God in the animals and the plants. Respect God in the rocks and in the stars. And have faith that the God who made all this, including you, knows what He is doing.

And always, always, always, be grateful. "Thank you" are the two most beautiful words in the world.

Sincerely,
Lemuel Gulliver.

I have no wish to hijack the combox of Will's blog...

2008-04-20T00:01:00.000-06:00

I have no wish to hijack the combox of Will's blog, however much I might care to "discuss" the Roman church. (By the way, great job, Will.)

My point in all this has been as Dylan said, you have to serve someone. It might be the Lord and it might be the devil, but you have to serve someone.
Well, guess what, our nation and its constitution doesn't serve God, so ultimately/eventually it serves itself. As the nation's Christian history, culture and morality decline, more and more the officers of the state will pull the kind of stunts they did in Texas.

PS. (Sorry Will, I couldn't resist.)
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

This just after Jesus had said 5 verses earlier: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Question: So is Christ responding in both instances to something Peter said or is the first pope actually satanic, i.e. antichrist as the Protestant Reformers said?

Hint, it's called a dilemma. If it is something Peter said and not Peter himself that Christ is referring to, then he is not the pope. If he is the pope - the rock on which the church is built - he is also Satan.
And that's all I have to say.
Thank you.

reformed veritas wrote: "I was born and raised in ...

2008-04-19T20:40:00.000-06:00

reformed veritas wrote: "I was born and raised in the Roman church, the whore of Babylon."

Somehow I don't think that, when your day comes, Our Lord is going to appreciate you having called his bride a "whore."

"Neither do I have a quarrel with the word or concept 'catholic,' but it is another thing when the Roman bishop usurps the headship of Christ's church."

Christ clearly and specifically gave the keys to Peter, personally. So you don't like that. Fine. Your argument is with Jesus, not with Peter.

"Neither can tradition contradict the Scripture, which is infallible and perspicuous or clear."

Quite so. This is the ancient and unchanging teaching of the One, True, Holy, and Apostolic Roman Church.

"Neither did the 'Church' determine Scripture. Rather the church recognized and confessed what it clearly is, the Word of God."

True. The Church did not write Scripture. However, she did solemnly define which works were canonical and inspired, so as to distinguish them from those which were clearly uninspired or of dubious status. If it were so obvious to the naked eye which works are inspired and which not, this would not have been necessary.

"If not for the Protestant Reformation we would all be worshipping a piece of bread and turning a blind eye to the Roman clergy's 'child abuse'."

Kind of the way you turn a blind eye to abuses in your "church?" Or are you here to tell us that they don't happen; that your Protestant brothers, among all men, are without sin? The sexual abuse crisis in the Church is indeed scandalous, but its cause is not Catholicism. It's cause is a lack of fidelity to Catholicism. Many of the leaders in the modern Church are just as corrupt and wicked as you imply. However, supposing that your solution (Abandon the Church! Every man for himself!) is any kind of protection against that is mere wishful thinking. Christ has promised that His Church, even through the darkest hour, will endure and conquer (spiritually, of course), and so it shall.

As for "worshipping a piece of bread," I always find it amusing that those who accuse the Church of inventing doctrines antonymous to the "clear teaching of Scripture" have such trouble understanding the clear teaching of Scripture (indeed, of Christ Himself): "This is my body." Evidently, along with Mr. Clinton, you are experiencing some confusion over the meaning of the word "is."

"Again, if it were not for the Protestant Reformation, the totalitarian Roman church would rule all with an iron fist. That was what the Inquisition was about and they didn't just come for the children."

Okay, now you're just being stupid. I refuse to believe you're that unreflective. The Roman Church was never "totalitarian." It doesn't have, nor never had, the means to be totalitarian. The Church is not a state, with an army to enforce its will. It rules, so far as it rules, at the pleasure of the faithful, who in the past thought it proper for Her to ride herd over earthly rulers and nations. That may or may not be the proper relationship of Church to State, but it's not like the world was divided between the evil, iron-fisted oppressor and the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Painting the Church as a kind of pre-Soviet Soviet is laughable at best. (We see, for instance, the terrible difficulty Englad had throwing off Papal rule once Henry VIII decided to apostasize...)

Moreover, the Inquisition was a creature of the State, not of the Church. Nations such as Spain created Inquisitions in order to pursue what they thought were noble (or at the very least, states being states, prudent) goals.

Just checking back on Reformed Veritas:I apologize...

2008-04-19T18:50:00.000-06:00

Just checking back on Reformed Veritas:

I apologize for these religious comments on this forum, but I can't let an attack on the Church go unanswered. I am called to "give a reason for the hope that is in me."

I see you are woefully ignorant of history. The Church had a Council, where they definitively decided the Canon of Scripture. Protestants who are not Anti-Catholic will admit this. The Magisterium voted, based on the Holy Spirit's guidance, on what letters were truly inspired. How can you wave you hand and dismiss this? Oh, that's right, as a Protestant you can do whatever you want. You can even disgrace the Catholic Church by calling her a hideous name. Who interpreted that part of Scripture for you---another Protestant I bet. Anyone reading Scripture on their own, for the first time, without any prejudices, would never invent such an absurdity. Someone who hates the Church and wants to spread that hate sure can though---can't they? By the way, you never did respond to any arguments given. Just two further questions---Where in the Bible does it say "Bible alone"? Hint it doesn't. Where in the Bible does it say---"Faith alone"? Hint it doesn't. In fact, the only place where faith and alone are together is when it says, "Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone?"

On a personal note, you say that you were part of the Roman Church. I'm sorry you were not given the opportunity to know and understand the true teachings. There has been some poor catecheses over the years. That in itself is a scandal, but one who seeks the truth will find it. I assume this because you refer to the "Body and Blood of Jesus Christ" as a piece of bread. I can't quote the whole chapter, but read John Chapter 6. It's so clear in there that even a "Bible Alone" person can understand the true meaning.

BTW, the Church has always been filled with sinners, because the world is full of people, but it is those people that Jesus came to save. You can find more scandal within the Catholic Church than any other Church--that's because it has been around and filled with people for 2000 years. Perhaps, you do not understand the difference between impeccable and infallible. The people in the church are not impeccable, but the teachings of the Church are infallible. Are there any Churches, (isn't yours splitting up right now) that haven't been affected by scandal? But nonetheless, the saints shine through and give us hope that it is possible to live a holy life by following the church's teachings. They have led by example and constantly, even now, pray for us to walk with Christ.

Hi Lemuel!(Seen any Lilliputians lately?)My point ...

2008-04-18T23:41:00.000-06:00

Hi Lemuel!
(Seen any Lilliputians lately?)
My point rather obtusely made was that Jesus said there is no neutrality. You are either for or against him. But our constitution and government is "neutral". (Not really. On anything other than Christian presuppositions it would never last as long as it has. But because whatever, if any, Christian presuppositions that undergird our constitution are implicit, the door is open to stray further.) Therefore it is idolatrous, much more that more and more it sees itself as god. Hence the actions in Texas. We're from the CPS and we don't have to answer to anybody.

Dear anonymous,
I was born and raised in the Roman church, the whore of Babylon. Thankfully I know more about it now than I ever did as a member. Neither do I have a quarrel with the word or concept "catholic", but it is another thing when the Roman bishop usurps the headship of Christ's church. Neither can tradition contradict the Scripture, which is infallible and
perspicuous or clear. Neither did the "Church" determine Scripture. Rather the church recognized and confessed what it clearly is, the Word of God.
But to cut to the chase - again. Lord Acton was a Roman churchman and his comment on power referred to both civil AND ecclesiastical tyranny. If not for the Protestant Reformation we would all be worshipping a piece of bread and turning a blind eye to the Roman clergy's "child abuse". Again, if it were not for the Protestant Reformation, the totalitarian Roman church would rule all with an iron fist. That was what the Inquisition was about and they didn't just come for the children.
From the Waldensians to the Bartholomew's Day Massacre the record is not good and it will more than whup the Texas CPS record, not that the Texas CPS and Gov. Perry (and Jeffs) don't need a good whupping also.
cordially,

To "Reformed Veritas" and "Anonymous":Your religio...

2008-04-18T11:22:00.000-06:00

To "Reformed Veritas" and "Anonymous":

Your religious discussions are fine, but I think they are missing the point of this essay, which is not to discuss religious belief, but the terror tactics and brutality of the Imperium.

I personally call myself an imperfect aspiring Christian rather than a "Christian." I am too ignorant and sinful to preach to anybody. I respect your beliefs, and pray that if there is further enlightenment and understanding that you need, God will reveal it to you. If you are so inclined, I encourage you to keep researching history rather than holy scripture, especially the histories of various religious movements, (including the Roman Church itself.)

A couple of others have hinted darkly that if we think hard, we will know what was the real reason for this atrocity by the Imperium. Sorry, but I am not a mind reader, and cannot be sure my conclusions are the same as yours. Please be more explicit and tell us what you think - nobody is going to come knock on your door in the middle of the night - at least, not yet.

Personally, I think that once the fruitcake Warren Jeffs was removed and could no longer impose his crazed will on this community, there was absolutely no need to kidnap four hundred babies from their mothers.

The only reason I can see for this horror is to send a message to other groups who want to live a lifestyle different from that mandated by the Imperium Corporationem. Any organized group of like-minded citizens choosing to live together in community seems to be perceived as a threat by the Imperium. The Baal State evidently can only tolerate one-day-a-week believers, who assemble on Sunday or Saturday or Friday, and then go their separate ways.

I cannot see this mass kidnapping occurring in any country of Europe, without an uproar which would bring down whichever government tried such a thing. The last time Europe saw babies torn en masse from their mothers' arms like this was sixty-five years ago on the station platforms at Auschwitz.

This horror is an abomination, a monstrous crime by the Baal State. How long will a just God tolerate such things, before we receive the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah? What kind of country is this we live in? What will become of us?

Lemuel Gulliver.

I agree completely with yr comment anon: "I really...

2008-04-18T04:34:00.000-06:00

I agree completely with yr comment anon:

"I really can't believe all of you seemingly smart people are missing the "real" reason the gov took away all of their children.
Think about it from a different point of view for a minute and you'll get it."

Completely.

Reformed Veritas,Perhaps you don't know the True C...

2008-04-17T23:10:00.000-06:00

Reformed Veritas,

Perhaps you don't know the True Church of God, the Church called Catholic. You see, it spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ by word of mouth for over three centuries before they compiled the Bible that you now read. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to guide His Church "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" and promised that "the gates of Hell will never prevail" over His Church. Do you believe Jesus? Do you believe he lied? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit failed and the Gates of Hell prevailed? If so, you really aren't much of a Bible believer are you?

The Church's teachings were passed on orally until heresies arose and the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, compiled and then stated the New Testament was inspired by the Holy Spirit because those letters taught the authentic, heretofore, oral traditional teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ. That's right the Church formed the Bible. Many today take a Bible and form a church. The problem is self-evident--schism and mixed-up doctrine.

In fact, you allude to the Tradition of the Church when you talk of Sunday Worship. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to worship on Sunday---The Church decided it. Nowhere in the Bible is the word Trinity---The Church defined it. Oh it's in the Bible, but not directly. In fact, written Scripture cannot contradict the oral Tradition of the Church or vice-versa. All of the Tradition is in there, but you don't believe the Church when it points out the verses of Scripture. The oral Tradition is as unchanging as the written Scripture. The Pope and Magisterium have the "keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" and they are God's guides here on earth for all mankind. Jesus, because he is wise, foresaw the need for One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church because he knew that people would "twist scripture with their own interpretation" and go astray. No, in His Wisdom, He left the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, to guide all of us.

I look on the Protestant Heresy as the problem we are encountering generally in America and specifically with this situation in Texas. If someone can twist the Bible, which has an authoritative interpreter (Pope and Magisterium) into meaning whatever they want it to say. How much easier is it to twist man-made laws? How much easier is it to invent new (doctrine) laws?

This situation is terrible and deserves condemnation by every person of every religion and of every political bent.

Mr. Grigg,The more I read and re-read this story, ...

2008-04-17T23:00:00.000-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

The more I read and re-read this story, the more it reminds me of King Herod's murder of the innocent children of Bethlehem:

"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not."

This mass kidnapping of babies is an atrocity comparable to the monstrous horror perpetrated by Herod, which should rouse the entire world to outrage for the next 2,000 years, and which would do so, except that our media are tools of the Imperium.

This is too much. It turns my stomach. Four hundred innocents torn away from their mothers.

Do you know when the last time was when we saw this kind of thing happening? I will tell you. It was on the railway sidings at Auschwitz.

My God.

Yours sincerely,
Lemuel Gulliver.

The "swarm of attorneys" are ad litems appointed t...

2008-04-17T21:19:00.000-06:00

The "swarm of attorneys" are ad litems appointed to "represent" the children. They will, most likely parrot the conclusions of CPS as to the disposition of the children, cuz that's how the game is played. This insures the attorney's re-appointment on other cases. As a former CPS employee, I can tell you it is true that far too many placements of children do indeed result in both physical and sexual abuse of the children. Just as bad, the children are often emotionally scarred for life.

As to the illustrious Governor Rick Perry, do some reading on his veto of 40 bills in 2007, to insure that his precious nafta highway, i.e. trans texas corridor would not be eradicated by the legislature. His henchman the Texas attorney general was right by his side. If the corridor is constructed, it will displace over a million Texas families. Think Perry cares about 400 children? Think again.