tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post8215807486092499395..comments2017-04-13T04:47:21.148-06:00Comments on Pro Libertate: The Ballad of John SingerWilliam N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-2448137093918348292014-04-27T03:15:24.199-06:002014-04-27T03:15:24.199-06:00I wonder if the school superintendent's son in...I wonder if the school superintendent's son intentionally caused the raft to overturn in the lake causing the drowning death of Spencer Smith. The school superintendent wanted Singer killed so maybe the school superintendent's son wanted the boy on the raft to drown? I would have thought Utah was a place to be free in the 1970s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-26323796778440771072012-12-07T10:44:37.791-07:002012-12-07T10:44:37.791-07:00I'm sure that the nutjobs will continue to mak...I'm sure that the nutjobs will continue to make a martyr of him<br /><br />-- because only a "nutjob" would resist the sacred principle that his children belong to the State, correct?<br /><br />As I understand the term, "megalomaniac" refers to someone who is power-mad. Wouldn't that be a better description of someone who presumes to dictate how other people will raise and educate their children? William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-8160709261311187512012-12-07T10:43:49.171-07:002012-12-07T10:43:49.171-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-57140551245168318162012-12-07T10:16:12.621-07:002012-12-07T10:16:12.621-07:00The legacy of John Singer is a legacy of sacrifice...The legacy of John Singer is a legacy of sacrifice. He was willing to sacrifice the welfare of his children to satisfy his megalomaniac mindset. I'm sure that the nutjobs will continue to make a martyr of him. Greg Pearsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08519775866024248522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-30407503071963830862011-11-16T15:17:18.367-07:002011-11-16T15:17:18.367-07:00john singer in my grandmothers brother. I had been...john singer in my grandmothers brother. I had been to their farm many times while growing up. At no time did i ever see that there was any abuse. My family are good people. John was shot in the back and what followed was because of that injustice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-84275344461813764942011-01-07T20:46:48.172-07:002011-01-07T20:46:48.172-07:00John Singer is my Uncle, it is important to say al...John Singer is my Uncle, it is important to say alot of what the media said were lies. I know I was there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-7640804479260853892009-04-17T19:06:00.000-06:002009-04-17T19:06:00.000-06:00Having seen the autopsy photo of Singer he was SHO...Having seen the autopsy photo of Singer he was SHOT IN THE BACK with buckshot, IN THE BACK.<br /><br />Utah, not a great stateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-16876156945713887852009-04-14T23:13:00.000-06:002009-04-14T23:13:00.000-06:00I believe John Timothy Singer actually fired the s...I believe John Timothy Singer actually fired the shot that called Fred House although Swapp was also convicted along with SingerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-20993042016491921582009-04-12T08:59:00.000-06:002009-04-12T08:59:00.000-06:00"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been don..."When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done."<BR/><BR/>Just about the most repulsively un-American sentiment ever spoken by people calling themselves Americans.<BR/><BR/>Any person believing this makes themselves less than a person. Sentiments like this would warm the cockles of Josef Stalin's heart. Such people have my contempt.The Omega Mannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-10290364480852320112009-04-10T10:58:00.000-06:002009-04-10T10:58:00.000-06:00Nellis, and Vulture,I agree with both of you. My ...Nellis, and Vulture,<BR/><BR/>I agree with both of you. My intent was simply to point out that that not all Mormons are conformist sheep. The LDS church does seem to be overunn with people willing to let others do all of their reasoning for them. Personally, I believe such is contrary to the teachings of Christ which countless times have commanded the faithful to take up the sword in their own defense.<BR/><BR/>jk<BR/>Si vis pacem, para bellumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-29177495004991464722009-04-09T19:23:00.000-06:002009-04-09T19:23:00.000-06:00Well I'm glad somebody finally mentioned the murde...Well I'm glad somebody finally mentioned the murder of William Cooper.<BR/><BR/>Is his story really that little well known?Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-73210916099599661722009-04-09T18:46:00.000-06:002009-04-09T18:46:00.000-06:00Anonymous wrote:I must take issue with the asserti...Anonymous wrote:<BR/><I>I must take issue with the assertion that LDS church members "trust the state". Sheep trust the state. And I would think sheep are found in equal proportions among all religions here in the United States.</I><BR/><BR/>I REALLY have to disagree, Anon. Mormons are MUCH more likely to acquiesce to "authority" than people of other faiths that don't propagate mantras like, "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done."Vulturehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11024818170161390657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-89157878344187777392009-04-09T15:49:00.000-06:002009-04-09T15:49:00.000-06:00Comments as fups to the John Singer article made i...Comments as fups to the John Singer article made in re LDS attitudes of believing the written constitution of the USA to be inspired and if so, LDS support of authority of all kinds policing written law under that constitution will benefit from understanding what is discovered about the constitution at http://www.edrivera.com. Dr. Rivera finds the document filled with double entendres which no one else has discerned. To name a few, that no one has ever taken the Art VI oath to support "this" written constitution, all oaths taken have merely sworn to uphold the "constitution of the United States" which is defined as the ceded federal territory belonging to the USA;that such an oath leaves the USA with a military dictatorship in the person of the Pres. of the U. S., and he is an employee of congress; that there never has been an adoption of the written constitution by the feds, only adoption by the states who ratified it, etc, etc. These being the historic facts, the LDS church insofar as it believes the constitution to be inspired appears to risk much if these points are true. One thing is sure: Ed Rivera's teachings link historical fact with documentary evidence that explains the dilemma of the claim of freedom yet the fact of facsism: we live in a military dictatorship. Descriptions of the murder of John Singer, his wife's attempts to sue the state, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Wm. Coopers murder, all speak of a system using a military power to destroy it's perceived challengers with impunity. Much lost time and energy swatting the leaves can be saved by striking at the roots of the problems. Check out EdRivera.com and see if more dots can be connected in the story of the constitution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-11743796224400072752009-04-09T13:09:00.000-06:002009-04-09T13:09:00.000-06:00Mr. Grigg: bless you, sir. I really enjoy this bl...Mr. Grigg: bless you, sir. I really enjoy this blog and your writing. History such as this needs to be remembered.Michael Maierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08674077874840435220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-11049315388952618422009-04-09T12:24:00.000-06:002009-04-09T12:24:00.000-06:00I'm a Mormon who grew up outside of Utah and have ...I'm a Mormon who grew up outside of Utah and have lived in Utah since attending college at BYU and, quite frankly, I hate the Utah mentality of members of the church. There are two great examples similar to this situation, even though they thankfully didn't end with murder, where two intelligent people were ostracized and railroaded by people who claim to share the same beliefs but couldn't stand the idea of non-conformism.<BR/><BR/>The first was Dr. Steven Jones. Enough said.<BR/><BR/>The second was a worker in the student organization who wrote a letter to the editor in the school paper basically calling for a reform of that organization due to its numerous and obvious flaws, particularly in the election process- where candidates three years in a row had been disqualified for frivolous reasons, most especially the team that got removed for creating a campaign website when websites became required the following year. He was fired for his "disloyal act."<BR/><BR/>Thank you for writing this essay, both for bringing to light more crimes committed by the state and a dark piece in church history that Mormons need to learn to accept the fact that they helped contribute to it by violating their own teachings.David S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-54507642665349621302009-04-09T12:18:00.000-06:002009-04-09T12:18:00.000-06:00Mr. Grigg, I totally agree there is a huge differe...Mr. Grigg, <BR/><BR/>I totally agree there is a huge difference between racial separatism and white supremacy. I do not, of course, like either set of ideas, and I've no doubt you feel the same. <BR/><BR/>And of course the man was painted as a racist. It's the worst thing in the world to most people. You can butcher babies in utero, torture other human beings while calling it "enhanced interrogation techniques" or "verschärfte Vernehmung" in the original guttural German, and you're considered a hero. But if you hold a racist "idea" and don't even act on it, and it's open season. <BR/><BR/>I have no doubt the man was demonized and railroaded in the extreme. My simple point was that a martyr for liberty who holds racist ideas reflects upon the rest of liberty lovers rather poorly. It allows simple-minded people to look beyond the atrocious "reason" for the murder, and say, "He had it coming, the damn racist." That is a problem for the advancement of liberty.<BR/><BR/><BR/> -Sans AuthoritasSans Authoritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-58941021659187384962009-04-09T09:38:00.000-06:002009-04-09T09:38:00.000-06:00On the subject of the Singers' racial views, it's ...On the subject of the Singers' racial views, it's important to point out that racial <I>separatism</I> is not necessarily the same thing as white supremacism. <BR/><BR/>The Singers did object to the textbook depiction of Martin Luther King, Jr. as a hero akin to George Washington. That was, and remains, a common sentiment in Utah. <BR/><BR/>As Fleischer and Freedman point out (pg. 8), that was a peripheral complaint at the time the Singers withdrew their children from school; their most vigorous protests dealt with the teaching of evolution and "immoral behavior in the schools," the latter of which was "the most important issue" to them.<BR/><BR/>The perception that the Singers were hard-bitten racists can be traced back to the influence of our good friend, Val Edrington. As Fleischer and Freedman note (pg.107), on January 3, 1978, Edrington and a fellow educrat named Terry Christensen issued press releases about the Singer case. "Both releases emphasized the fact that John Singer had objected to school textbooks that had taught racial equality. This was the first time the issue of race had been brought to the public's attention; those who already saw Singer as a religious fanatic and an outlaw now held racism against him as well."<BR/><BR/>Edrington's cynical, manipulative press release was issued just weeks before he publicly endorsed the idea of killing John Singer as punishment for the "crime" of defying the educational establishment.<BR/><BR/>Ironically, at that time, Edrington -- as an active mainstream Mormon -- was required to sustain the racist doctrine that black people, as part of the lineage of Cain, could not participate in ordinances giving them access to the highest level of glory in the hereafter. <BR/><BR/>That doctrine also held that intermarriage between black and non-black individuals would result in transmitting that "curse" to the couple's children.<BR/><BR/>This was <I><B>exactly the same thing believed by the Singers.</B></I> It was a stupid, abhorrent, indefensible teaching. And it was dutifully accepted by many people otherwise untainted by racial prejudice of any kind. Among that number were my parents Dick and Angie Grigg, the unfathomably generous white Mormons who adopted me, raised me, and loved me without reservation. They were relieved beyond expression when the Mormon Church abandoned that doctrine in June 1978, as were countless other members of the LDS Church. <BR/><BR/>(Oddly enough, even <I>after</I> that doctrine was abandoned, the LDS leadership reiterated its opposition to "inter-racial" marriage and dating.)<BR/><BR/>In publicly embracing segregation, the Singers were being candid about their belief in, and application of, a doctrine they shared with mainstream Mormonism until June 1978. <BR/><BR/>There is absolutely no evidence that they regarded non-white people to be anything other than fully human; their homeschool curriculum began with a detailed study of world geography and cultures; where inmates of public schools were being fed "social studies," the Singer children were given detailed instruction about the peoples and cultures of the world (see Fl. and Fr., pg. 9).William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-75117624251086615752009-04-09T08:29:00.000-06:002009-04-09T08:29:00.000-06:00Apologies to Sans Authoritas and Pat H; I did not ...Apologies to Sans Authoritas and Pat H; I did not watch the videos. (I prefer text because I can scan it before I read it, and easily move back and forth for clarification). That said, I'm hyper-sensitive about allegations of someone's mental or moral failings having any bearing on criminal activity. I'm not a very good Christian, but even I know that only God can judge a man for what's in his mind.racketmenschhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15310712144886544713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-42636203486897634652009-04-09T07:49:00.000-06:002009-04-09T07:49:00.000-06:00One more for anonymous,Of course there are LDS who...One more for anonymous,<BR/>Of course there are LDS who do not trust the state. And I hope there are more and more. Actually, they are truer to the earlier Mormonism (regardless of its other characteristics). The fact remains, however, that there is a very substantial bias in contemporary mainstream LDS thought that is very pro state, or at least, pro USA state.Nellis Lakehttp://christianandstate.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-49211243912939364022009-04-09T06:38:00.000-06:002009-04-09T06:38:00.000-06:00Well done!The one thing that the sheep never seem ...Well done!<BR/>The one thing that the sheep never seem to get a grasp of is, the state has no rights. A person can not commit a crime against the state alone where there are no victims and no one was cheated. Maybe better said is the state has no personal rights over the rights of the citizens. <BR/>I remember this case from the time and clearly remember the spin job the media was doing to slander the Singer's as backwards mountain hillbillies who were destroying their children's chances at life.AvgJoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-9650588687760203732009-04-08T23:09:00.000-06:002009-04-08T23:09:00.000-06:00I must take issue with the assertion that LDS chur...I must take issue with the assertion that LDS church members "trust the state". Sheep trust the state. And I would think sheep are found in equal proportions among all religions here in the United States. Trust me when I say that the LDS church has many sheepdogs among its membership. Sheepdogs who do not trust the state and are prepared to take such actions as are necessary to preserve their lives and freedoms. Nothing disgusts me more than a fellow Mormon who lives his life as a lamb waiting to be lead to the butchers. For those of you who also consider yourselves to be sheepdogs, many Mormons stand beside you with weapons oiled and mags stuffed.<BR/><BR/>jk<BR/>Si vis pacem, para bellumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-77372748080889016132009-04-08T22:15:00.000-06:002009-04-08T22:15:00.000-06:00Well anonymous,One short reply. I was not suggesti...Well anonymous,<BR/>One short reply. I was not suggesting that every LDS person is equally virtuous or the reverse. I was only pointing out that--in spite of their treatment by the state--they trust it. Remember, the fellow that was shot in the back was not on the contemporary plan. In spite of his polygamy, he was obviously the good guy.<BR/><BR/>In any case, stop in to Temple Square in SLC and check out the cement-inscibed inscription along the eastern wall. Or if its quicker, check the sampling of quotes here:<BR/><BR/>http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1e705930f289b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, trust in the Constitution is misplaced. At the end of the day, someone on the local end of the chain coerces. Such is always the end where the state is involved.Nellis Lakehttp://christianandstate.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-77440812002933373172009-04-08T21:49:00.000-06:002009-04-08T21:49:00.000-06:00I realize it wasn't the topic of the story, but I'...I realize it wasn't the topic of the story, but I'm still surprised not even one person has made a single mention of Bill Cooper.<BR/><BR/>That's pretty disappointing.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-14268214378372970132009-04-08T20:42:00.000-06:002009-04-08T20:42:00.000-06:00Nellie Lake said . . ."LDS persons view the U.S. C...Nellie Lake said . . .<BR/><BR/>"LDS persons view the U.S. Constitution as almost inspired. Whatever the govt does is good."<BR/><BR/>Not hardly . . .<BR/><BR/>The LDS church, like most religious organizations, is highly opportunistic when it comes to power structures. One need only recall the rapidity which their leader had a divine revelation when their tax exempt status became threatened because of their racist policies.<BR/><BR/>Religion has always cultivated power and gov't has become the tool of choice for executing 'wet work' the church would prefer to keep a plausible distance from for at least the last century or so. <BR/><BR/>The problem (for them and the rest of us as well) is gov't grew beyond the control of religious institutions which were the hidden hand and has pretty much gone feral. <BR/><BR/>Before that there were inquisitions, witch burnings and, at least warranting honorable mention, the LDS own massacre of the Francher-Baker party in the Mountain Meadows (though they've actively denied it for 150 years).<BR/><BR/>A policy that has always served me well is that if a preacher or politician pats you on the back - you better check your wallet. Not that there aren't honorable religious people, they are just the exception and not the rule.<BR/><BR/>Sic Semper TyrannisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-45182402520599586892009-04-08T19:30:00.000-06:002009-04-08T19:30:00.000-06:00Hi Will,And a particularly interesting scenario be...Hi Will,<BR/>And a particularly interesting scenario because LDS persons view the U.S. Constitution as almost inspired. Whatever the govt does is good. For some gruesome stories, review the period when atmospheric nuclear testing was sending fallout over onto Utah soil. Lives were needlessly lost, because the govt did not have the same benign view of the citizens that felt the consequences. Lesson: It always comes down to the agents of government, and they are not benign.Nellis Lakehttp://christianandstate.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com