Comments on Pro Libertate: Power vs. Authority (UPDATED, 9/11)

David,I believe that you are looking at the world ...

2007-09-18T11:35:00.000-06:00

David,
I believe that you are looking at the world through rose colored glasses. The basic assumption in your statement is that the courts are a place where one receives justice. Sorry David. The courts are there to protect the state (empire), and besides, most people don't know how or can't afford to bring lawsuits against the state.

Of one thing we can be certain-- James Kuehnlein w...

2007-09-14T07:07:00.000-06:00

Of one thing we can be certain-- James Kuehnlein will never hold a law enforcement position ever again. Should some unfortunate agency ever make the insane mistake of employing him, every single arrest, every single ticket, every single act he does in an 'official' capacity can be taken to court and likely dismissed because the good freely admits having no moral qualms whatsoever about perjuring himself.

Additionally, anyone ever arrested, ticketed, or currently in jail because of James Kuehnlein's testimony no has grounds for appeal.

Newberry!Damn!!Freedom means that the kid can do w...

2007-09-13T21:58:00.000-06:00

Newberry!

Damn!!

Freedom means that the kid can do whatever he pleases, as long as he isn't screwing up.

The cop can ask waht's going on.

The kid says "nothin'".

The cop sees he's not drunk, stoned, or spattered in blood, so he has to lay off!

The cop can wait and observe - But not FFFFFFF With him.

otherwise, we all need to go home and bar the door.

apul

John,I think we agree on the meaning of "authority...

2007-09-13T21:37:00.000-06:00

John,
I think we agree on the meaning of "authority". "Persuasion", defined as the ability to command voluntary obedience, is a good catch, but I have a mental block when I juxtapose the words. To me it is a double oxymoron! I think the problem is that the great word "persuasion" comes to us with too many connotations or nuances. One can persuade with logic, evidence, facts, emotion, and fear.

Is it "persuasion" when the IRS (unlawfully and illegally) commands "voluntary compliance"?
As for me, I'm not persuaded.

Authority is the ability to command voluntary obed...

2007-09-13T11:14:00.000-06:00

Authority is the ability to command voluntary obedience.

I would argue authority is the permission to exercise power.

Persuasion is the ability to command voluntary obedience.

The fact that persuasion and power are alliterative is helpful for the rhetorical aspects of this distinction.

“Power is the ability to force compliance with one...

2007-09-13T07:48:00.000-06:00

“Power is the ability to force compliance with one’s demands; authority is the ability to command voluntary obedience.” -- Hannah Arendt

With all due respect to Hannah Arendt, here are the definitions that are right and proper:

Power is the ability to force compliance with one’s demands; authority is a priviledge to exercise a specific and defined power, granted/delegated by a higher authority in possession of that same authority.

Her inclusion of the words "ability to command voluntary obedience” makes no sense at all.

The police chief has also had his problems. Back i...

2007-09-13T03:55:00.000-06:00

The police chief has also had his problems. Back in 2000 he was accused of propositioning a 17-year-old girl while a police officer in Arnold, Mo., and he was put on probation -- which means he was never cleared. Of course he denies all of it.

The town in question is nothing more than a speed trap. Such small towns should not by law be even allowed to have police forces.

Mot and anonymous:You both miss my point entirely....

2007-09-12T10:50:00.000-06:00

Mot and anonymous:
You both miss my point entirely. My point is that this guy was obviously looking to set up a situation where he would be confronted by an officer. He had his camera on in his car, deliberately drove right around a cop car, and parked in a commuter parking lot in the middle of the night. NOTHING WRONG WITH THOSE ACTIONS PER SE.

Anyone who doesn't know how pompous and paranoid police officers are these days IS a dumbass in my opinion.

This guy was clearly trying to set an officer up. That hurts his credibility with anyone other than those of us who already agree with him. If he's trying to convince those who think the cops are "your friend" he'd better find a more convincing scenario.

The cop in the scenario was clearly out of line, especially with the calm demeanor of Darrow. His actions are suspect in my opinion and in the opinion of pretty much everyone commenting here. But that's preaching to the choir. We don't need convincing. The general public does, however.

So perhaps when you comment to someone it would be good to actually read and understand the point they are making rather than seizing upon a minute part of what they say and taking it out of context to make an unrelated point.

It's interesting that Darrow had to mention that h...

2007-09-12T02:09:00.000-06:00

It's interesting that Darrow had to mention that he didn't intend to "entrap" the officer. I'm puzzled as to why he would even say that.

I'm sorry, but I don't give any credence to the so-called "entrapment" nonsense from anyone of any stripe for any reason. You mentioned it with Larry Craig and I laughed out loud. Nobody "entrapped" Mr. Craig and if he pled guilty, he was freakin' guilty or he would've fought it from the start. Otherwise, it's a glaring mental sign that he doesn't belong in the Congress or any other law-making body. Besides, it's also glaringly obvious that someone, who pleads guilty when they are absolutely NOT guilty of the act in question, is rudderless and has no principles, at the very least. Notice I didn't say "law in question" because some acts one may indeed be "guilty" of committing have no constitutional (or moral) basis to be supressed or banned. It's called fiat "law".

So even if Darrow went there for NO reason or ANY reason that doesn't violate a genuine law, the cop can nevertheless likewise for NO reason or ANY reason stop and assess the situation. But the copper, in so proceeding, should just have simply acted like any sensible human being, and ask why Darrow was in the commuter lot at 2AM. Not a big deal and nothing out of character about such a question, given the time in question, the reported thefts in the area, etc. Afterwards, just go on about your official duties and leave well-enough alone. But no, this copper decided instead to play the "power" game since he must of known he otherwise certainly lacked the authorita (sic) to harass and arrest Mr. Darrow.

Anyhow, it's good that this copper was, at the very least, suspended without pay. Still, the punishment was inadequate, IMO. A copper with that kind of attitude and total disregard for the citizens who (involuntarily, yes, but still) provide his bread, the Constitution, and the local law, not to mention whimsically threatening to fabricate charges, should be fired outright as the absolute minimum.

In any event, one almost certain result of this widely-disseminated episode will be that potentially corrupt coppers at all levels, from now on, will not simply ignore, like Kuehnlein (who noticed it and commented on it, btw), about a camera that they see and simply confiscate the camera and/or trash it. I suspect that that's probably already occurred many times and we never hear about it. After all, then it's the "holy" government agent's word against a mere commoner who other commoners view as likely to be criminally inclined since they believe government is filled with mostly "holy" fellas for the most part.

Sigh.......they never....................LEARN!

"Only a dumbass would drive right by a cop car and...

2007-09-11T23:58:00.000-06:00

"Only a dumbass would drive right by a cop car and park in a commuter parking lot in the middle of the night and NOT expect the cops to come for him."

Ok. Lets say for a moment I live in a bad area. I want beer or a snack from the corner store. I walk a block down the street and see a group of known thugs hanging out by the corner. I know for a fact if I walk any further to simply make a purchase I have a chance of having an altercation for some reason or another. My purchase has nothing to do with this group, except for the fact that I have something they want... (money).

Are we at the point with the police now a days that I cant do something 100% legal that has nothing to do with them (i.e. stopping off the road for what ever reason) with out the threat of being assaulted? It seems that way.

So even if this kid was looking for the police to stop him. Even if thats the whole reason he has the camera in his car in the first place. If he is not doing anything wrong he shouldn't have any video to show for it.

The sad thing is in the case of walking to the corner store your probably less likely to be engaged by a group of thugs if you ignore them and just go about buisness than you are from just going by a police officer.

If I were a judge in this case with responsibility...

2007-09-11T22:07:00.000-06:00

If I were a judge in this case with responsibility to sentence the wrongdoer, I'd sentence the "cop" to one year for each minute that he unlawfully abused Mr. Darrow.

Out of a video of almost thirteen minutes, that "cop" would have easily "earned" a 12-year sentence according to the above standard.

"Only a dumbass would drive right by a cop car and...

2007-09-11T09:35:00.000-06:00

"Only a dumbass would drive right by a cop car and park in a commuter parking lot in the middle of the night and NOT expect the cops to come for him."

Really? Has it come to this where should someone, anyone, wish to stop that they're open to assault? By a cop no less! Has it come to the point where we can't stop, can't light up, can't drink, can't flush, can't protest (unless designated)... ad nauseum? It's that kind of THINKING that's dangerous. That if you don't "obey" that you're treated like the slave they see you as. What kind of "freedoms" do these clowns protect? Evidently it's the freedom to lick their boots.

taylor, In no way did I defend the cop in that exc...

2007-09-11T04:09:00.000-06:00

taylor, In no way did I defend the cop in that exchange. I criticized the guy who was clearly looking for trouble.

There's a big difference between saying that both parties were wrong and defending one of the parties.

Yeesh. That pig was out of control. This makes m...

2007-09-10T23:30:00.000-06:00

Yeesh. That pig was out of control. This makes me ill.

Your blog is an excellent chronicle of the insanity that is modern day policing. Keep up the good work!

al newberry,Way to defend an everyday thug and his...

2007-09-10T15:43:00.000-06:00

al newberry,

Way to defend an everyday thug and his everyday thuggery for no reason. So what if the kid provoked the cop... he still didn't do anything wrong and the cop still isn't right to treat those he's supposed to "protect and serve" (remember, that JOB thing he kept bleating about) in such a manner.

He's a tyrant and a thug, a true villain. It's pretty dishonest to see anyone try to defend what he does.

btw, I love how Kenline gives the "lecture" at the end of the night, too. Father-State is here to set his children right... am I right "BOY?!"

I'd like to see the person who isn't a State-boot-...

2007-09-10T15:40:00.000-06:00

I'd like to see the person who isn't a State-boot-licker who doesn't think that the only reason dirtbags like that cop are alive are because they have badges and the power of the law behind them.

But not the authority.

"My job" LOL... disgusting

DD -- I earnestly mourn the days when Ramon Perez ...

2007-09-10T15:14:00.000-06:00

DD -- I earnestly mourn the days when Ramon Perez was actually fairly typical of the men recruited into police departments.

And you're right, of course, that the blame lies not in our "Czars," but in ourselves, that we are underlings.

My perception is that Darrow actually precipitated this encounter as a way of exposing the speed trap set by the officer.

Darrow is an activist, and that means happily inviting trouble, to some extent. While I don't believe in backing down once trouble presents itself, we have trouble enough without borrowing some more; as we've been told, sufficient to each day is the evil thereof.

The officer here is clearly out of line. But this...

2007-09-10T15:06:00.000-06:00

The officer here is clearly out of line. But this guy was obviously looking to be stopped by an officer. Only a dumbass would drive right by a cop car and park in a commuter parking lot in the middle of the night and NOT expect the cops to come for him. It may be wrong, but it is pretty obvious this guy was looking for an encounter with police. He just happened to have his video camera on for the event.

Oh so true. But I do have to say (yet again) that ...

2007-09-10T14:46:00.000-06:00

Oh so true. But I do have to say (yet again) that the culture itself is producing these cretins. They're also NOT the minority personality type anymore...sigh. Ramon Perez's type, OTOH, IS fast becoming the minority in society at large, so there's slim pickin's even for the few departments that want people of relatively good character.

That said, yes, most departments seem to want to recruit the worst of the bunch; the more illiterate and cretinous, the more obedient they will naturally be :(.

Speaking of this Missouri copper that Brett Darrow had the misfortune to meet on the copper's beat, I was perusing Digg a few hours ago and I happened to catch that exact video since it had 3800+ diggs so far!

This isn't the first time Darrow (who is a hero in the cause of civil liberties, but who needs to be a bit more judicious if he wants to avoid becoming a martyr) has experienced and documented the totalitarian mindset that increasingly typifies the police.

Indeed. However, we all, who have bona fide brass scrotums that is (No, I'm not absolutely certain I even have those when it comes down to the (gun) metal), may have to face becoming a martyr at some point in time. If not for exposing State goons on the prowl for prey, then most certainly for something truly worthy of the final sacrifice, life itself. If we really believe in what we are sayin' and claimin', of course.

Nevertheless, I agree that one who purposes and goes outta the way to have encounters with the State and to overexpose State goons to the wide world merely for the accolades and fame is most unwise, IMO.

Hopefully, that's NOT Mr. Darrow's intention. Although, I do have to wonder about someone who has multiple serial encounters with State agents while seemingly always having a video cam at the ready. But, many mobile phones these days have 'em and it seems everyone has one of those so it's possible he's just unlucky to meet the goons so frequently.

Anyway, this sad situation won't improve until the commoners absolutely and resolutely demand it, they likely won't, and act like responsible folk themselves getting involved in helping to shape their local and state Leviathanettes, walk their talk, etc., etc., and most likely won't adequately do those things either.