Comments on Pro Libertate: Trayvon Martin and the Cult of Government Supremacy (Update, March 24; Second Update, March 28; Third Update, April 20; Fourth Update, May 17)

This is certainly the proverbial "can of worm...

2012-09-23T10:04:04.893-06:00

This is certainly the proverbial "can of worms" to open, but here goes.
The facts present themselves: Both parties were in a public or public accessable area.
G.Zimmerman, no matter what capacity he had assumed for himself had every right to be there.
T.Martin: Likewise above.
A confrontation occurred.
Now, with updated information, we can see that Zimmerman did indeed sustain injuries from an apparent assault.
In the application of Deadly Force it is only necessary that the VICTIM believes that they are likely to receive serious bodily injury or be killed by the assault to respond with deadly force.

Question: At what point can a distant observer determine what is actually the probablility of "serious bodily injury" or likelihood of death? That decision is reasonably and lawfully left to the victim to be able to articulate. For anyone to proffer that they can determine what constitutes a deadly threat to another in the imminence of the moment is a fallacious argument totally without moral grounds.
Yes, mistakes can be made in the heat of the moment that can result in tragedy, i.e. the intruder shot in a home turns out to be a family member coming home late.
These types of incidents could certainly be curtailed if people would seek proper training in personal defense. However, humans are lazy animals and quite arrogant especially about supposed rights of self-defense.

Question: What should Martin have done?
My answer would be: The same thing that Zimmerman was doing. Call 911,
back off, and leave the area.
Oh! you say that I want Martin shot in the back, huh?
In the hard reality would anything now be different except there would be no question of Zimmerman's actions.
Other concepts in the use of Deadly Force will come into play in this upcoming circus. One of which is the concept of "Disparity of Force". Which takes into consideration the physical differences between two combatants,i.e. size, strength, age, skill and some others. Presuming of course it was not a "mutual combat" as described by statute.
The State will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was the aggressor and that he initiated the combat. Zimmerman has already established his "affirmative defense" and now must justify his actions before a jury or "cop a plea". As far as any information I can glean Zimmerman was not engaged in any unlawful activity. Neither was Martin.
The "Stand Your Ground" law is not usually worded as such but as "..no duty to retreat.." depending, of course, that the person invoking the statue must not have been engaged in any unlawful activity at the time.
Race baiters see this incident as a chance to promote themselves as champions and to instigate more racial distrust and hatred. They profit from it.
If truth wins out, and I pray it does and regardless of Zimmerman's culpability, this case will set some precedence that will be resounding.
Many have called for immediate repeal of "stand your ground" laws nationwide thereby facilitating that all must retreat from criminal assault regardless of the preclusion that might exist. This is a heinous concept and deprives the law abiding of any standing to defend their lives at all.
Forbid it Almighty God!

RHN, as far as the burden of proof goes, as I unde...

2012-05-20T06:51:20.744-06:00

RHN, as far as the burden of proof goes, as I understand it there is less burden of proof on the shooter, thanks to SYG laws. In FL the shooter claiming self defense can file a motion to dismiss, pretrial, and if he can prove by a preponderance of evidence - a much lower standard then beyond reasonable doubt - that his actions were defensive, the judge may dismiss the case. In Z's case, I don't think he'd make the "preponderance of evidence" hurdle to get the case dismissed, but the prosecution may not be able to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that his claim of self defense is false either. SYG makes self defense a somewhat less 'affirmative' defense than in jurisdictions without such laws.

As far as your question "why hasn't he been asked to do so yet" well, it's because they haven't had the trial yet.

"We still don't know how it started, or w...

2012-05-20T06:44:36.797-06:00

"We still don't know how it started, or which party was actually "standing his ground" in the face of a mortal threat."

That's the most reasonable thing you've said about the Martin/Zimmerman incident: we don't know who was standing his ground and who was the aggressor - and a prosecutor may not be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that i was Zimmerman. That's the reason for the Murder Two charge. It's an attempt to intimidate Z. into taking a plea, because the case itself is difficult to make.

I agree that Z. should have just left Martin alone, and that he profiled Martin. If Zimmerman had threatened martin, put his hands on him, or flashed his pistol, you could argue that Martin was in legit fear for his life. But no one saw Zimmerman do such a thing, and it's just as likely that Martin attacked Zimmerman because he was outraged at being profiled and harassed.
FL law says that an aggressor loses his right to stand his ground, and must exhaust all possible means of escape before resorting to lethal self defense. Zimmerman was arguably an aggressor or provocateur to the fight with Martin, but just as arguably, he HAD exhausted all means of retreat once he landed prone on his back, and Martin straddled him - flight or de-escalation at that point would be difficult if not impossible.

Also, you could argue that even if Trayvon started out defending himself, once he'd knocked his attacker supine, pinned him to the ground, and continued to rain punches down on him, his role at that point changed from defender to aggressor.

Or maybe not. Maybe, because Zimmerman was armed, Trayvon was afraid to let up on him until Z was unconscious or until Trayvon had control of the weapon, for fear that if he let Zimmerman up he'd be shot. Maybe maybe maybe.

Zimmerman should have left Martin alone. Whether his actions just prior to the fight were illegal or just unwise I'm not sure. That's what juries are for.

No, attempts to say anything good about guns are f...

2012-05-01T12:26:02.114-06:00

No, attempts to say anything good about guns are far worse. For you. What's worse for everybody else is to make self-defense a suspicious thing, and lower yet, to say a 250lb giant was a 50lb child and a latino was a white to make a shameless bid for black supremacy. This is like media circus with the lacrosse team.

Mr. Grigg, As an avid reader of yours, it's ...

2012-04-16T12:22:52.870-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

As an avid reader of yours, it's doesn't surprise me that you're the lone voice of reason on the Trayvon Martin case.

It's to be expected that the civilian disarmament crusaders would appropriate Trayvon's corpse as a mascot. More frustrating, however, is that respectable libertarian writers are casting knee-jerk aspersions on Martin's victimhood, seemingly in reaction to his portrayal in the media as an anti-gun martyr.

I detest media racializing and anti-gun activism as much as anyone, but this cynicism runs contrary to the evidence, which suggests Zimmerman murdered Trayvon. And writing articles about entirely irrelevant photos or Twitter user-names is not only ad hominem circumstantial, it also serves to further racialize the case (and in no flattering way).

As you elucidated so well, even if Trayvon was an ignorant roustabout, he was perfectly *allowed* to be one so long as he wasn't hurting anyone else.

So, where are Zimmerman's injuries? Isn't the burden of proof on the killer to demonstrate he acted in self-defense? Why hasn't he been asked to? Isn't it reasonable to investigate a boy's death, and to allow his killer to testify before a jury of his peers (that is, his non-costumed, non-criminal peers)? And when have libertarians EVER trusted an LEO spokesman's assurances that, "These aren't the droids you're looking for"?

As awful and tasteless as attempts to martyr Trayvon for the anti-gun cause may be, efforts to make Zimmerman a martyr for gun-owners and *just* practitioners of self-defense is far worse.

Curt, I appreciate your comments and your politely...

2012-04-14T19:50:28.467-06:00

Curt, I appreciate your comments and your politely expressed disagreement. :-)

many can be a problem, but do not justify lethal f...

2012-04-14T19:19:54.889-06:00

many can be a problem, but do not justify lethal force.

When you are laying on the floor, taking MANY punches... at which time do you say, "Okay. This guy is going to kill me or cause great bodily injury?"

After you have been knocked out, then you can shoot?

Anyhow, you are right on so many counts, but you are wrong on this one Will.

Mr. Grigg, So far as I can tell, you have this p...

2012-04-06T17:10:40.781-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

So far as I can tell, you have this pegged. Refreshingly so considering the knee-jerk and utterly counter-productive response of the "gun crowd".

One of the cowardly "anonymous" comments above even suggests that the survival period for a full-grown man being punched is "less than ten seconds"....What nonsense.

I submit-Boxing.

Also, I'm, by this reasoning, dead many times over. When I was younger, I worked as a bouncer in a rough nightclub-I've been punched by large angry men(including on SEVERAL occasions the drunken, and pathetic, flailing of off-duty police)...a single punch is not a big deal-many can be a problem, but do not justify lethal force.

Anonymous, have you ever tried to kill anything-let alone a large mammal-without a weapon? It is much more difficult than you think.

The response from the self-defense and gun crowd should have been-"It is too bad Treyvon didn't have a weapon." HE clearly was in a position where he needed one.

We can speculate as to why that has not been the response....

It is my sincere hope your living situation reaches a positive resolution-I'm impecunious at the moment myself, so I can offer little but my best wishes.

Trayvon was CLEARLY attacking Zimmerman. When did...

2012-04-05T17:32:15.509-06:00

Trayvon was CLEARLY attacking Zimmerman.

When did this "clearly" happen, and why?

We have the unsupported word of the shooter that he was attacked, which is certainly what he'd be expected to say. Yet a witness to the confrontation via telephone has offered a sworn statement that Martin was in fear of Zimmerman -- a belligerent stranger who stalked him and then pursued and accosted him. We have independent, contemporaneous proof of Martin's state of mind, and only Zimmerman's after-the-fact rationale to claim that the killer was acting out of fear for his life.

Martin, per the witness mentioned above, retreated when Zimmerman pursued him -- that pursuit is confirmed by Zimmerman's 911 call. The witness likewise heard Zimmerman confront Martin, something he had specifically been instructed not to do so.

Per Florida law, Zimmerman was the aggressor, and Martin had the right to stand his ground if a physical confrontation occurred. Zimmerman had no right to accost Martin, and both the moral and legal duty to retreat. His story was pungent with falsehood, which is why the investigating detective (who saw Zimmerman's injuries, such as they were, first-hand) initially wanted to charge him with negligent homicide, which strikes me as a pretty sound assessment of the event.

WG, you have a fine blog, and 99% of the time you&...

2012-04-05T17:17:04.216-06:00

WG, you have a fine blog, and 99% of the time you're spot on. This time however, you're wrong. Trayvon was CLEARLY attacking Zimmerman. This was a clean & legal shoot per Florida law. Please, "man up" and admit that you got the facts WRONG.

Hey, did you notice the news now about the case? ...

2012-04-02T11:42:29.860-06:00

Hey, did you notice the news now about the case?
It says that we've been prejudiced by the photographs@! Isn't that sick?! Zimmerman looks just as beastly in the recent photograph and Martin would be just as undeserving of Zim's 'attention' if he were slightly taller and older. In fact Zim looks even more powerful when he's less pudgy.
I don't have a direct link but it's on www.MSN.com and www.tulsaworld.com

Mr. Grigg, These neighborhood watch groups are s...

2012-04-01T19:23:44.404-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

These neighborhood watch groups are suppose to "watch," not "enforce."

Allowable officious conduct should not include shooting the neighborhood pets, or gunning down the children.

Several commenters are wrong to suggest that Zimm...

2012-03-30T22:01:21.089-06:00

Several commenters are wrong to suggest that Zimmerman attempted to question Martin about his presence in the neighborhood.

According to Zimmerman's own account:

"Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now," or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/mar/27/trayvon-attacked-first-says-shooter/

I would certainly consider the actions of someone who stalked me first by vehicle and then on foot in the dead on night and then failed to identify himself or state his reasons for following me to be a threat. Even a police officer must identify himself under such circumstances according to Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law :

CHAPTER 776, JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.---
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law...

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

If police officers must identity themselves in such circumstances it would seem reasonable that any cop wannabe should be held to at least the same standard. But Zimmerman did not identify himself or say that he was acting as a member of a Neighborhood Watch. At that point any reasonable person would consider fight or flight. Martin chose to stand his ground as the law permits.

The big story is the reaction of the media? If you...

2012-03-30T18:41:55.447-06:00

The big story is the reaction of the media? If you really believe that, you have a very Collectivist outlook, and I have this personal predjudice that All Collectivists Are Worthless, Unreasoning Douchebags. The real story here (in spite of the attempts of many AWAs (Assholes With Agenda) from all wavelengths of the political spectrum to hijack it is that a teen-ager who was doing no apparent harm _may_ have been stalked and murdered with no justification by a wannabe Pig and subsequently afforded a fabricated defense by said Pigs because they ultimately decided that he was on their side of their "thin blue line". The actual events may have been different from that scenario, but what little (vastly insufficient at this time, and certainly distorted by the AWA) objective evidence has been presented to date does not appear to favor Zimmernan's version of events.

Also, attempts to exonerate Zimmerman from possible motivation from racial prejudice by identifying him as Hispanic are beyond laughable. First, when last I checked, those who are preoccupied with such attributes classify Hispanics (Latinos, et al) as Caucasian. Second, I have the personal acquaintence of many Hispanics who are virulently prejudiced against Blacks. Hell, I know Dominican Republic ex-pats who despise Puerto Ricans and Mexicans on the basis of ethnicity.

Although the entire situation is unfortunate, I fo...

2012-03-30T16:47:03.608-06:00

Although the entire situation is unfortunate, I found that there could quite well be a "learning moment" if one examined the way the mass media directed the narrative. That was the big story, I'd say. Look at how they manipulate people into a frenzy.

NBC News is being excoriated in some circles for selectively editing audio of the 911 call placed by George Zimmerman just before he killed Trayvon Martin.

In the NBC segment, Zimmerman says: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”
The full version, though, unfolds like this:
Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
911 operator: “Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”
Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359

Also what is interesting is how this story has given cover to other various issues of even greater importance. O's newest Executive Order taking over everything in peacetime and the five year citizen data storage thingy, and the O impeachment bill in congress.

What can one conclude from all this? In America, i...

2012-03-29T18:18:50.290-06:00

What can one conclude from all this? In America, it seems, there are two classes: the Rulers, and the Ruled. The rulers are the rich, who can buy servants anywhere (including in statehouses and on Capitol Hill); successful con men who have talked themselves into political power; and anyone bearing a title and uniform of some sort. Even those who merely sport a TSA badge, or a judge's robes, or a city councillor's ID, or a meter-maid's ticket book. The ruled is Everyone Else. And everyone aspires to rule someone else - anyone - even if it is only their work subordinates, or their wife, or their children. I think this American phenomenon may be justifiably called the triumph of fascism. It is a national mindset, a national sport, a national hobby. Everyone craves the power to order someone else to obey their most perverse whims and fancies. Even landlords, homeowner's associations, and garden clubs. However, it gets dangerous when this national addiction to coercive power is directed at those who can fight back, like Iran, China, Russia, and other "others" who possess nuclear weapons. The American national sport, of dominance over everyone, might perhaps then potentially become not so satisfying, after all.
Lemuel.

PS: Perhaps mandatory estrogen injections for men, or the outlawing of tight underwear for all males under 35, might be the answer to this dominance addiction. Perhaps we should set up a new Cabinet agency, the Department of A Kinder Gentler America, and hire tens of thousands of armed enforcers with body armor, plexiglass shields, and billy clubs. We have already mandated total equality between the sexes. I have therefore decided that as a man, I want the opportunity to get pregnant and bear children. I demand it as my human right, (since our sanctified Founding Fathers decreed that all men and women are created equal,) and I want the taxpayers to pay for the medical costs. (I am on pension, so I don't pay taxes. Ha, ha, all you working slobs.) Perhaps this more complete gender equality can be the first order of business for the Department of A Kinder Gentler America. God bless this great country.

Looks like the "beating" that Zimmerman ...

2012-03-29T15:15:43.171-06:00

Looks like the "beating" that Zimmerman took turns out to be false.

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=AktrTDu87tGUItsSZCFVjces0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtcHE4OGJqBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnAzg3N2Vk

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thou...

2012-03-29T07:18:01.915-06:00

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

Suspensions, taking a swing at a bus driver, caught at school with a women's diamond wedding rings and earings "a friend gave me", burglary tools (for Show & Tell, right)...

I think Zimmerman was a busybody cop-wannabe douchebag who may well have fired his gun without justification, but I am also gonna go out on a limb and predict that next year, and for the next 50 years, school will be open on Trayvon "No Limit N----" (his Twitter handle) Martin's birthday.

Sandberg and his colleagues will still do great lo...

2012-03-28T17:41:56.724-06:00

Sandberg and his colleagues will still do great long after the case grounds to dust.

They take care of their own.

(By PK, 4 generations of government payroll including a cop, a justice of peace and a government employee.)

What I know is this: 1. the main stream media is...

2012-03-28T16:21:37.222-06:00

What I know is this:

1. the main stream media is doing the 'reporting'

2. the whole thing has been politicized

3. the whole thing has been put into the racial arena.

My conclusion: the truth, as it exists in reality, will never be entirely known.

A fact: Someone violated the non aggression principle and Grigg is correct to state so. The violator, whomever that may be, is the proximate cause. If Martin, he has paid; if Zimmerman, he should pay.

Both sides of this debate have failed to ask anoth...

2012-03-28T13:35:11.871-06:00

Both sides of this debate have failed to ask another question: Cui Bono?

I disagree with many who think race to be irrelevant in this issue. It's very relevant...to the State. "Left" and "right" are political oppositions and both "sides" are playing their part wonderfully.

The "right" usually loves to pretend they are "tough on crime;" they largely support the war on drugs; the continuance and propagation of innumerable obscure and often contradictory laws; etc. The State should be a tough taskmaster no matter the social and economic circumstances of the perps. They will get their day in court even if they have little to no choice in accepting the asinine deals presented to them by the parasitical lawyer class. The poor, in general, but minorities in particular, simply cannot afford the bond, court fees, etc.

The "left," on the other hand, loves noting more than "social justice" which means idiotic laws against thought and intention (at least those of certain people); they provide the very economic and social conditions which infantilize their ethnic pet projects with welfare housing, medical care, Federal subsidies in the form of checks, food stamps; they believe in progressive taxation that usually only progressively goes up; a bloated bureaucracy full of psychopaths who willingly coerce the wealth of others and skim a large percentage off the top for themselves as "administrative costs."

No. Race issues are exactly the axle-grease that promotes the State to come wheeling in whenever there's a problem they've already exacerbated by throwing bones to both "sides." Both have played their part magnificently in this case which will only result in some "Trayvon Martin Act" which will only penalize us and give the State yet more power.

Seriously? What planet are you from?

2012-03-28T08:36:24.316-06:00

Seriously? What planet are you from?

According to court records George Zimmerman is the...

2012-03-28T07:05:58.601-06:00

According to court records George Zimmerman is the son of retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert J Zimmerman, his mother Gladys Zimmerman is a court clerk....He has three closed arrests 7/18/05 for resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer div 10........8/9/05 for domestic violence div 44..... And again on 8/10/05 domestic violence div 46.

They had a protest in my city over this. Except fo...

2012-03-28T04:23:45.851-06:00

They had a protest in my city over this.
Except for some TeaParty rallies and a one hour protest against The Fed, since Obama got elected nobody protests nothing in my city, and now this? It's kinda out of the blue and out of character.

Strange thing is (and I'm no racists and I'm not Fixating on an ethnic dimension of this episode, I'm just observant) I noticed from the photo on my local paper it seemed all the protesters were black,... oh but that's not the strange part. The strange part is, suddenly I'm seeing unusual acting black dudes all over town like I've never seen before. I couldn't even describe it if I had two pages.

You know when Bill or George or any super big hot-shot comes to town there's this influx of black guys walking around in leather jackets (I'm guessing they're security trying to act like the locals) well, this latest group isn't like that at all. For half of them it's more like they're on a vacation cruise with extra wads of cash to spend.

I've been spending some time in the stores myself lately and I keep bumping into these People everywhere, from the conversations I overhear it's obvious they're not from here and they are spending like crazy. ... This ain't exactly a tourist town.

Maybe it's an odd series of numerous coincidences I suppose, but then again, it seems to me the protest groups in my area are being bussed in from somewhere, I heard a town name mentioned several times,... dang it I can't recall the name.

I've read about protestors being shipped in, in other cities for other reasons, but this is the first time I've ever seen it here. ... not that it hasn't happened before.

I thought it was interesting, maybe others would too?

The term, "community organizer" comes to mind for some reason. That, and it doesn't look like Pat Buchanan is going to see the Obama of Tampa any time soon.

Anonymous wrote, "I am amazed that so many want to paint Zimmerman as a "stalker" when, at most, he walked up to Trayvon and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood."

That's hilarious, in a sad way. Just meander up the the guy and meekly and innocently in a non-threatening way ask? Riight, As if. ... Are you a girl?

Even the term "civilian disarmament" see...

2012-03-27T23:01:41.682-06:00

Even the term "civilian disarmament" seems in adequate, as the police, at least in principle, are supposed to be civilians (even though they are, in practice, an army of occupation). Maybe a still more expedient term would be "taxpayer disarmament," reflecting the split between the productive class and the political class.