Comments on Pro Libertate: Administrative "Law" and the Tyranny of "Tolerance" (Update, July 18)

I agree. Thank you for your work!

2015-07-29T18:23:44.034-06:00

I agree. Thank you for your work!

I've had quite a bit of trouble with Kiwi6; wh...

2015-07-21T22:25:43.663-06:00

I've had quite a bit of trouble with Kiwi6; when it becomes practical to do so I'm going to migrate to a different platform. Please try the link again -- I think it's working now. Thank you.

Will, I believe the July 15 show link on Kiwi6 is ...

2015-07-21T21:55:00.731-06:00

Will, I believe the July 15 show link on Kiwi6 is broken

A lot of action was taking by people in the OR gov...

2015-07-19T20:30:59.856-06:00

A lot of action was taking by people in the OR government. Courts operating outside of the law, the states DOJ releasing information., on and on and on. There is one out come all of these government employees desire, to gain new and stronger foothold to grow government on as many new levels as possible. Justice is not an objective and never has been remotely anywhere in the actions of any government employee that has put their fingers on this matter in any degree. This matter only follows the footdteps of the cross dressing New York City ex-mayor and the, Broken Window policy. It grows and empowers government. He did a decent drag of Marilyn Monroe, all things considered.
On a side note: when police stopped being Peace Officers and became Law Enforcement Officers. Police stopped serving the citizens interest and started serving government's interest, which was to enforce the demands and needs of a growing government. Government servers government and growing government is in government's best interest. Follow the gains in empowering government like following the money, it's all the same.

" People cannot be claimed as "property,...

2015-07-19T08:37:06.502-06:00

" People cannot be claimed as "property," nor can one person claim a property interest in the involuntary labor of another. "

Oh,,, how true!

Too bad government doesn't concur. 40% of my earnings seem to belong to them in one fashion or another.

Rarely comment,,, first here (assuming allowed) ,, your articles are awesome.

This Oregon administrative "judge" was i...

2015-07-18T20:53:15.238-06:00

This Oregon administrative "judge" was in constant communication with the gay rights group during the entire episode. This is nothing more than Offended for Profit.

I can understand why examining the enforcement of ...

2015-07-18T07:42:49.141-06:00

I can understand why examining the enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act might seem to be a digression, but the transposition you suggest actually illustrates why it is not: People cannot be claimed as "property," nor can one person claim a property interest in the involuntary labor of another.

That second claim has been upheld in the cases of Elaine Huguenin and the Klein family. Although this isn't a restoration of outright chattel slavery, it is a "progressive" application of the same perverted principle that was made uniform throughout the U.S. in the 1850s through the Fugitive Slave Act, enforced through a very similar set of "administrative law" procedures.

The only legitimate purpose of law is the protection of property rights. Modern progressives and antebellum defenders of slavery both institutionalized the denial of property rights, employing very similar procedural methods in doing so.

Your article was excellent till it meandered off c...

2015-07-18T00:53:27.596-06:00

Your article was excellent till it meandered off course with your diatribe about the fugitive slave act. To demonstrate the absurdity of your argument substitute the word property for slave and youtr argument collapses.

While no one advocates a return to slavery the principles of the law should remain firm and not subject to the whims and capricies of the moment.

Our society has embraced a progressive kind of law, which is no law at all. Which is what the Left desires in order to develop their utopia. Your article failed by wandering out in left field. Pity.

Drivel I will happily accommodate, but liars aren&...

2015-07-17T07:36:02.390-06:00

Drivel I will happily accommodate, but liars aren't welcome here.

'gil' appears at several libertarian sites...

2015-07-17T07:09:02.048-06:00

'gil' appears at several libertarian sites i visit, always with the same drivel as appears here. he is an internet troll likely paid by those who despise the freedom espoused by libertarian ideology.

when reading 'comments', i no longer read those entered by him since his objective is not to foster debate, but, rather, only to attack. he has appeared here in the past with the same drivel.

Dear William N. Grigg Thank you, sincerely. I ...

2015-07-17T00:24:34.943-06:00

Dear William N. Grigg

Thank you, sincerely. I really appreciate all the time and effort that it take to not just write these interesting and insightful articles but also that you so thoroughly respond to the willfully ignorant and malicious (Heinlein's Razor). Time is our most precious resource, thus this note is intended to express gratitude and to offer some encouragement - to let you know that your generosity is not only noticed but also admired since it inspires and provides hope. Your writing is a proverbial light in the darkness of a world filled with ignorance, apathy and evil. It is somehow comforting to know that one is not alone. That there are others like yourself still diligently (and seemingly tirelessly) fighting the good fight, despite the high cost of a very finite resource. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

Please keep it up. You are making a positive difference in this world. Stay strong!

Your friend,

Q.

"Oh really?" is not an argument; the lin...

2015-07-16T09:58:48.411-06:00

"Oh really?" is not an argument; the link above leads to an early republication of Raw Story's now-discredited original story; and you have proven yourself to be an impenitent liar.

If you cannot trouble yourself to review the original document -- even with annotations that will direct you to the specific sections dealing with the questions under discussion -- you obviously prefer to luxuriate in dishonesty, which is your privilege. But you'll have to indulge this desire elsewhere.

I welcome disagreements, appreciate well-expressed opposing views, cherish the opportunity to engage in pointed debate; I will abide any variety of commentary that doesn't involve blasphemy or direct incitements to specific violence.

I will not countenance proven liars like you, Gil.

Oh really? http://www.alternet.org/civil-libertie...

2015-07-16T09:14:25.699-06:00

Oh really?

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/debunking-big-media-myth-real-reason-anti-gay-bakers-oregon-were-fined-135000

Gil, the first section of your comment is just as ...

2015-07-16T07:40:55.047-06:00

Gil, the first section of your comment is just as ill-informed as the latter one:

Rather this a "haw-haw" moment for the 10A fanbot Libertarians who believe the States can make laws in spite of the Federal Constitution. Namely the people in question have broken various State laws and the 1A only prohibits the Federal Government not the States. Hence Libertarians have to now worry about the tyranny of the State Governments making their own laws that override peoples' freedoms.

Could you specify which "laws" (plural) were broken by the Kleins by declining to make the requested cake? The Oregon Equality Act of 2007 (cited above -- http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/659A.403) contains 158 words, none of them addressing "denial of service."

Assuming that the actual text of the law means something, what the Kleins did was not illegal. They did not refuse "accommodations" -- by, for example, posting a sign announcing "No Gay Customers Allowed"; they simply announced that they didn't provide a particular service, in much the same way that a Pizza restaurant might say that doesn't offer a particular combination of toppings. Rachel Cryer and her mother could purchase any of the products offered by the Kleins on the same terms as any other customers. That's what equality of "accommodations" means, and the Kleins did nothing to interfere with it.

The lawbreaking that occurred here was committed by Commissar Avakian, who, as the Oregonian points out, "lacks the statutory authority ... to punish the Kleins" for their supposedly illegal conduct. (See http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/07/bolis_sweet_cakes_judgment_tak.html)

It's important to remember that the BOLI is not a court (it describes itself as a "forum"); Avakian is not a judge; and this case -- one that deals with a matter of "first impression" -- has yet to be dealt with by a legitimate judicial body. This illegal and grotesque damage award will not survive actual judicial scrutiny, and the Kleins have been blessed with the financial means (albeit just barely, at present) to mount what will inevitably be a successful legal challenge.

Libertarians traditionally have seen the 10th Amendment as a useful protection against federal impositions, while seeing the spurious construct called the "state" at any level or in any guise as inimical to liberty. While I oppose federalization of police power, I focus primarily on abuses committed by police agencies at the state and local level.

Most importantly, libertarians subscribe to the non-aggression principle in all human conduct. The Kleins committed no aggression against the lesbian couple; exactly the reverse is true.

...the bakery got a large fine because they releas...

2015-07-16T07:16:48.408-06:00

...the bakery got a large fine because they released the gay couple's personal details to the public in which they got harassed and even death threats from those supporting the business.

Gil, in harmony with your previous performance, your summary of this case displays a tendency to pontificate regarding subjects about which your ignorance is profound and comprehensive. In this matter you're regurgitating claims put into circulation a week ago that were immediately, and decisively, debunked by people who (unlike yourself) actually read the BOLI's "Final Order." On the off chance that you're actually willing to review the document, I'll supply a roadmap of the relevant details, given that dispelling ignorance is my chief objective.

Page 19, lines 10-15 of the Final Order dispose entirely of the claim that Aaron Klein, by briefly posting one page of the complaint against his business -- a public document -- to his Facebook audience of 17 "friends," he "doxxed" the couple, or that he did anything inappropriate, immoral, or illegal:

"Although AK [Aaron Klein] has been interviewed by the media on a number of occasions about the case, he did not initiate any contacts with the media. Other than posting LBC's [Laurel Bowman-Cryer's] complaint on his Facebook page, there is no evidence that AK gave Complainants' names to the media." (Emphasis added)

Page 16, lines 8-14, disclose that on February 12, 2013, the Oregon DOJ "emailed a copy of LBC's DOJ consumer complaint to a number of media sources" in what it called a "mob email." That complaint contained Laurel Bowman's name, phone number, address, and email address. If anybody "doxxed" Bowman, it was the DOJ -- or, actually, she did it to herself, because the complaint form explicitly warned her that the information would be "released to the business or person about whom I am complaining" and put into the public domain (see Final Order, page 8, lines 20-23).

The Final Order describes the "harassment" and "death threats" -- assuming this occurred, given that Laurel Bowman-Cryer is described as a serial perjurer with "a strong tendency to exaggerate and over-dramatize events" (see page 21, lines 1-16) -- as a result of the DOJ's media contacts, not those of Mr. Klein.

Finally, Commissar Avakian's award of damages -- which, as even the Oregonian newspaper admits, is illegal -- specifically rejected the claim that the couple were entitled to damages "as a result of the media and social media attention generated by the case" as a result of Aaron Klein's solitary Facebook post. (See page 40, lines 2-19).

Take a few minutes to review my citations (here's the link -- http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf) and then decide if you would like to revise or retract your comments about a case you clearly haven't taken the time to study.

Rather this a "haw-haw" moment for the 1...

2015-07-16T02:00:07.833-06:00

Rather this a "haw-haw" moment for the 10A fanbot Libertarians who believe the States can make laws in spite of the Federal Constitution. Namely the people in question have broken various State laws and the 1A only prohibits the Federal Government not the States. Hence Libertarians have to now worry about the tyranny of the State Governments making their own laws that override peoples' freedoms.

On the other hand, the bakery got a large fine because they released the gay couple's personal details to the public in which they got harassed and even death threats from those supporting the business.

America is over. Your principled arguments, while ...

2015-07-14T07:28:18.835-06:00

America is over. Your principled arguments, while erudite, are lost on the mass of the people and the politicians. You would think that by now small business owners would get smart. Raise rates, or say you're closed that day, or on vacation. Dont come right out and deny service because...(protected class here). Be smart! The game is rigged, so learn to play it, because you are going to lose if you stand on principle or what passes for law in this "country".

Fact, The First Amendant is clear and on the side ...

2015-07-13T21:54:05.331-06:00

Fact, The First Amendant is clear and on the side of American citizens, period. Will such courts force People of faith in Christ to worship rocks because it's deemed that 51 percent of the people in their town do worship rocks. And by not going along to worship The Rocks puts a hardship on The Rock worshiping church by the lack of cash in the offering on Saturday's church services. The church will be forced to another building without A/C. Causing damages of serious hardship on The Rock freaks. This is a situation that is only about 10% down the slippery slope that Americans are about to ride down and suffer We can thank the two black robed homosexual woman who refused to honor their oath of office and voted with black hearts. Nice!

Coprophagia enthusiasm. No surprise.

2015-07-13T20:09:23.531-06:00

Coprophagia enthusiasm. No surprise.

Those bakers in Oregon should have baked a cake fo...

2015-07-13T15:51:47.665-06:00

Those bakers in Oregon should have baked a cake for them... I heard cow manure is tasty.... enough ketchup and it hides most of the taste.