Comments on Pro Libertate: The War Party's Jihad in Oklahoma

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, may all your w...

2010-12-10T10:37:57.020-07:00

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, may all your wishes come true!

If you're ever in Oklahoma You better move aro...

2010-11-15T15:52:31.598-07:00

If you're ever in Oklahoma
You better move around at night
'Cause they don't like no transportation
Slipping by in-and-out of sight
And they don't care about Dallas, Texas
And they don't care about Wichita
If you're ever in Oklahoma
You better move around the law
They got fines and they got plenty
They'll hold you up for days on end
Threaten your life and take your money
Make you think you're there to stay

-JJ Cale
If you're ever in Oklohoma off the album Really

Juan, I hope you get to read this, since Mr. Grig...

2010-11-14T23:59:50.419-07:00

Juan,

I hope you get to read this, since Mr. Grigg has a new essay posted.

Eric Hoffer was not Jewish. He was German, his family hailing from Alsace. Can you really imaging a Jew being the son of a cabinetmaker, and spending his life as a longshoreman and a bean-picker in the fields of California? Wikipedia says he took a job as a salesman, and upon realizing what a great talent he had for it, he quit after one day, as he felt he was taking advantage of people. That does NOT sound like your typical Jew, does it?

Let me quote you an aphorism of Eric Hoffer's, and ask yourself if a Jew could have written this: "Retribution often means that we eventually do to ourselves what we have done to others." Does that sound like your typical Jew talking?

I don't doubt he wrote that piece you quoted; it is typical Hoffer. He was passionately contemptuous of intellectuals and effete money-men, and a great champion of the underdog and of people who worked an honest day's labor for an honest day's pay. I can imagine this is why he would take the side of Israel and the Jews - as you yourself have pointed out, (and I happen to agree with you 100%,) the Jews are the world's experts at appearing as the most pathetic victims in history, when it is they who are usually victimizing others.

As far as quoting Martin Luther and others, I have a large document, "What prominint men in history said about the Jews," which contains quotations going all the way back to Tacitus and Seneca. It is remarkable, that over thousands of years, and in cultures of diverse religions, from Emperor-and Zeus-worship, to Isis-and-Osiris-worship, to Jesus-and-Mary-worship, every place the Jews have EVER lived they have been a hated minority. I even have a book called "A History of the Jewish People," by Hayyim Ben-Sassoon, and it is an astonishing chronicle of 5,000 years of persecutions, pogroms, expulsions, and forced displacements.

It is equally astonishing to me that ANY Jew, upon reviewing this remarkable history of theirs, never stops to ask the 64-million-dollar question: "WHY?" Why have they been so hated across millenia and across continents by everyone they lived amongst?

Juan, I advise you to step back from your anger, and look at this question as a disinterested and impartial observer. Your words will be far more effective and better received, and you yourself will avoid the risk of heart attack or ulcers, and live a happier and longer life. You and I are not going to change the world. Even if we change the minds of a few readers here, let's say 10 or 20 people, (we should be so lucky, as a Jew would say,) what is that among 6.8 billion people in the world?

Read as much as you can, inform yourself, and cite facts when you write. I know there is a vast and endless supply of facts to choose from, but you must therefore be selective - nobody is going to sit still long enough for you to tell the whole story.

Anyway, Eric Hoffer was a good man, and does not deserve your condemnation. His books are STILL among the most valuable things anyone can read in furtherance of their education and enlightenment.

Kindly yours,
Lemuel Gulliver.

Please take a look at "Empire Builders" ...

2010-11-13T21:36:00.912-07:00

Please take a look at "Empire Builders" at my blog Victims Of Organized Crime In Central Texas http://vocct.blogspot.com.

Gulliver and Winslow Have you read Henry ford'...

2010-11-13T18:40:18.749-07:00

Gulliver and Winslow

Have you read Henry ford's book on the jew? How about Martin Luther's On the jews and their lies?

Hoffer, I had never heard of, but he was nothing but a rotten, typical zionist talmudic jew who only cares about jews.
I found this article by him. It says it all. Just another jew who only care sfor jews. One would have to be blind not to see it. In another articlle I found he was quoted of having told an angry poor oppressed black american to get a job and do something. this jew knew very well that blacks were discriminated against in the 1940's. Of course this racist jew got a medal of honor from the servant of the named ronald reagan. I wonder how many African-Americans, who are the real Americans(not those khazar jews), received the Presidential Medal. Oh, the jew has received tons of medals.
No thanks, I have no interest in what any jew has to say.

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Eric Hoffer in 1968 on Jews and Israel (prescient)
national review ^ | 1968 | Eric Hoffer

Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 9:45:54 PM by dennisw

A friend just emailed me (Michael Ledeen) this, a comment from Eric Hoffer in 1968:

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.

Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese-and no one says a word about refugees.

But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace .

Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations when they are defeated survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967] he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on .

There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general.

I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us.

Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.

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BD... That sort of fear mongering burbled by Abrah...

2010-11-13T17:42:28.788-07:00

BD... That sort of fear mongering burbled by Abraham is nothing less than thought control. The lying argument goes something like this: If you have nothing to hide then you won't mind having your liberties stolen or trampled upon now would you? Otherwise you could be some sort of "sleeper" terrorist, ungrateful unpatriotic malcontent or a "porno scanner refusenik"! Eh?

Mr. Grigg: Thank you for another thoughtful essay...

2010-11-13T10:17:34.610-07:00

Mr. Grigg: Thank you for another thoughtful essay.

You wrote: “Would you contend that most mosques in the United States are also serving as weapons repositories?” the interviewer asked Abraham, to which the Reverend offered an eager and emphatic affirmative reply:

“Sure! Now, are there any weapons right now if I go to the mosque down the street? Do they have them? Maybe, maybe not. But that does not mean they would not have them.”

I'm old enough to remember when our boobus americanus believed that the basements of Catholic churches were stacked with weapons on call for the revolution. The hysteria reached it's zenith in my lifetime during the 1960 presidential election. If JFK were elected, the Pope wold issue his call to arms, the Constitution overthrown, and the country become an arm of the Vatican.

Still waiting.

Liberranter, Thank you. All, Has anyone here NOT ...

2010-11-13T00:03:44.636-07:00

Liberranter,
Thank you.

All,
Has anyone here NOT read "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer? If not, please enrich your life by getting a copy - you can get it used on Ebay, Amazon or Alibris for only a couple of bucks - and studying it. It is very short, only about 100 pages, but it takes time to read, because the ideas are so profound you have to stop and think about them. Another excellent little book by Hoffer is "The Ordeal of Change," which is a great manual of life, since all our lives are changing all the time. Much of the discussion above, including how different individuals interpret their particular religion differently, will be illuminated by these two books.

Most of us here are libertarians, and cannot stand the regimented, socialistic, and violent interpretation of Islam taught in regimented, socialistic and violent Arab cultures. But, as I pointed out before, as our own nation descends into socialism, violence, rigidity and oppression, a growing number of so-called "Christians" in America are interpreting their so-called religion the same way.

TL Winslow,
The reason you are right as far as that goes, is that most of the Muslim immigrants to Europe are economic refugees, fleeing their failed societies, which have failed and remained dirt poor because of their rigidity, violence, and suppression of free thought. (Do we see a vision of America's future here, dear fellow readers?) They bring those attitudes with them. It is illogical - what do they want to create in their new homeland, a mirror image of the hell they left behind? Or what? Actually, you are quite right - those tribal cultures, and a Western culture of enlightenment, tolerance and free thought CANNOT coexist in the same space.

There are three solutions: (1) Germany, France, and America should become like Somalia, Sudan and Yemen, regressing about 600 years, (2) The Muslim immigrants will have to learn to enjoy and adopt the new Western culture in which they now live, or (3) They can go back home to the hell of dirt, poverty and violence from which they fled.

Of course, a major feature of those hells of squalor and poverty they fled from is lack of education, and no exposure to the faculty of critical thought and analysis. (The True Believer phenomenon, which many evangelical "Christians" are trying to re-create in America's schools.) It is probably too late for the immigrant generations, but perhaps - only perhaps - their children can have their minds led forth from darkness by Western thinking and Western education.

Friends: Do yourself a favor, and read those two books by Eric Hoffer, if you have not done so already.

- Lemuel G.

liberranter said... whitebuffalo, thank you f...

2010-11-12T21:34:35.224-07:00

liberranter said...

whitebuffalo, thank you for clarifying your post and please accept my apologies if I came across as condescending or unduly harsh (nasty habits that sometimes get the better of me and that I struggle continuously to rein in). I absolutely share your sentiments regarding "service in the legions," a sad mistake I too made earlier in life. It looks like we've both seen the light.

There's no need to apologize. Truth be told, I too struggle with the same "nasty habits that sometimes get the better of me".

And I hope I don't come across as some lunatic "bomb-bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran" war-mongering chickenhawk like the hypocrite Jim Quinn of the radio show Quinn & Rose.

My goal is to encourage people - all people - to seek Liberty and prosperity and thus happiness. I just argue that Islam (like many other ways) isn't the path to said goal.

BTW I like your phrase, "service in the legions,". I use the term, "hitman for the empire".

Thank you, my brother, for your eloquent voice of ...

2010-11-12T18:34:25.145-07:00

Thank you, my brother, for your eloquent voice of reason.

"Christians" in America need to realize that Christians in Iraq suffer due to our fanaticism--just like the Palestinian Christians. Now the crazies want to heap the same suffering and persecution on the Jews of Iran.

"Yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service" (John 16:2)

Not that we should only love those who we recognize as our brothers. (See parable of the Good Samaritan.)

The hysteria about Muslims brings to mind what people used to say (and some tiny few on the fringe still say) about the Jews. They're suspicious, insular, cliquish, think they are superior with their strange religion, and they put that little "K" on food items and force us to pay the "kosher tax" supporting Jewish organizations. Imagine the hype if this were being done by Muslims: "Your Grocery Shopping -- Supporting Islam!"

You know, I highly resent having to pay a tax to support a religion I don't subscribe to. (And c'mon ... what's "kosher aluminum foil"?)

Next thing you know, here come the Noahide Laws and guillotines! (Yes, I'm being facetious with that, to illustrate a point that should be obvious.)

-- OTC
think outside the cage

Winslow I suggest that you read Father Prainaitis...

2010-11-12T18:21:18.171-07:00

Winslow

I suggest that you read Father Prainaitis's The Talmud Unmasked and Martin Luther's On The Jews and Their Lies. Also read Henry Fored's The International Jew. If you are a jew, which you probaBLY ARE, READ THE mARCUS eLI rAVAGE OR yOU gENTILES BY THE ANTIGENTILE JEW Maurice Samuel.

There is more.
In conclusion, the enemy of WEstern Culture is the jew.
Who is behind homosexuality? the jew. Abortion? jew. Feminism? Jew. Open borders? jew. Pedophilis? jew. Who has candlestick on Whiteman's White House lawn? jew.
Communism? jew.

If you are a White European non-jew, then you are a traitor to your race and the human race.

Tired of hearing about Islam? Sorry, the ever-incr...

2010-11-12T16:42:12.988-07:00

Tired of hearing about Islam? Sorry, the ever-increasing uproar over Islam's incursions into the West isn't a passing fad, it's here to stay, and it's not about "Islamophobia", it's about Islam, the world's most supremacist and intolerant ideology making a comeback. The word phobia means an unreasonable fear of something based on ignorance which leads to irrational decision-making processes. The meaning of the word Islam is submit or surrender for a reason, and it's eminently rational to fear being made to submit or surrender to anything bad, which a study of Islam's history proves it to be in spades. Muslims are not like, say, Sikhs, colorful people with quaint customs who are usually quite harmless unless you attack their Golden Temple. From day one Islam has been a giant horror show, a relentless push for world domination centered in Mecca that churns out zombies, slaves and corpses, and is like a rachet wrench, it only turns in one direction: the submit-to-it direction. Due to Muslim immigration, the once happily Muslim-free West is in increasing peril of Islamic infiltration and takeover, a process that will be all bad news, the borders of the Muslim world are always bloody. Too bad, the media are currently dominated by Islam history ignoramuses and Muslim disinformation artists who claim to see no threat, and worse, blame and try to silence those who do, hoping to stifle all debate about the political dangers of the ideology of Islam itself, repeating the pattern of many proud civilizations of the past before they were absorbed forever.

When it comes to Islam, Western political principles learned via study of the last couple of centuries of history won't work, nor will appeasement. It's not about Marxist class struggle or Western capitalism with them, it's about eternal rewards or punishments for what they do on Earth for their god Allah. And it sure isn't about voices like moi who warn of the threat of Islam, it's about them, and I'll prove it.

Take their slogan that Islam is a religion of love. It is, but only in the sense that all Muslims must love Allah, who then tells them who to hate, namely unbelievers, including Muslims of a different stripe, and what to do about them, push them aside and conquer and rule their territory, then reduce them to dhimmi status, making them pay a tax to keep from being executed.

Take their slogan that Islam is a religion of peace. Most Muslims say that only because previous Muslims waged bloody holy war for centuries and suppressed the infidels and set up Allah's peace terms of Sharia, meaning rule of the land in his name, which destroys everybody's freedoms permanently and only compensates by giving Muslims a bit more freedom than infidels. So the catch about Islam being a religion of peace is that it's only after you accept its peace terms of total submission along with its horrible Sharia that makes Muslims superior to non-Muslims and men to women. Until then Allah commands Muslims to wage ceaseless war with unbelievers, which historically has come to mean even Muslims of different sects, which is why Islam has been a religion of endless war with an ironic slogan. Allah himself declared the war, and no human can declare peace in his name, sorry, you're either with him or against him, although he does permit temporary truces greased by plenty of jizya or punishment taxes.

It's not about racism. Islam isn't a race, but it wants to absorb all races, so let's not go there, it's counterproductive. It's not just a religion either, because it comes with a god who wants to control the government.

Simply put, Allah and his spokesman Muhammad are the archenemies of our Western freedoms, including our precious U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Therefore those who submit to Islam are already working for the other team and are just haggling about the price, and for that reason Islam must be dealt with differently.

More:
http://tinyurl.com/islamwatch

whitebuffalo, thank you for clarifying your post a...

2010-11-12T13:20:56.640-07:00

whitebuffalo, thank you for clarifying your post and please accept my apologies if I came across as condescending or unduly harsh (nasty habits that sometimes get the better of me and that I struggle continuously to rein in). I absolutely share your sentiments regarding "service in the legions," a sad mistake I too made earlier in life. It looks like we've both seen the light.

Lemuel: Your post makes PERFECT sense, and is easily confirmed by even a cursory observation of "religious" people of all cultures and religions around us. ALL of the world's religions, no matter how explicit their tenets, are affected by human culture, environment, and attitudes, all of which differ from place to place, region to region, and race/ethnicity to race/ethnicity. A Protestant "Evangelical Christian" from the Deep American South bears little or no resemblance in religious practice or even outlook on life to an Egyptian Copt. Similarly, a Malaysian Sunni Muslim bears little or no resemblance to an Iranian Shi'ite Muslim. Each hail from a different culture that, irrespective of its religious foundations (most of which are relatively recent to the culture's origin), views life very differently from other cultures sharing the same religious faith. (To cite another example where Christianity is concerned, some African Christians still retain remnants of their pagan past, such as the practice of polygyny or female genital mutilation, even though their Christian faith strongly discourages or expressly forbids such practices).

So yes, "we" do create God in "our" own image, consciously or not. Whether "we" in sufficient numbers can ever overcome that tendency to the point where "we" can make the world a more peaceful place, in accordance with the best aspects of our religious faiths' core tenets, remains to be seen. I can't say that I'm optimistic.

Ah, Brother Will I believe you understand Rex Dunc...

2010-11-12T08:34:35.149-07:00

Ah, Brother Will I believe you understand Rex Duncan better than he does himself. As another Okie reader here, I do not shrink from characterizing him, and many others like him, as fascist. The bill in question did strike me as fear-mongering, and it was sold without allowing proper discussion of how the wording can be taken in unintended directions. The words alone can be taken to forbid considering the Ten Commandments, for example. That's the reality of all such laws, all the way up to the US Constitution. Misconstruction by subsequent readers is the rule on such things.

In some years past, I recall seeing a stack of rifles in a Baptist church, and thought nothing of it. Guns do nothing of themselves. I was much more disturbed by the reflexive war-mongering of the entire membership. These days I lead worship in my home, and I refuse to vote in our fixed and corrupt elections here. Nobody represents my views on much of anything, and I have no interest in pressing those views on anyone else.

I consider myself an arrow in God's quiver, and the target is not yet in sight. Given the impending collapse of so very much everyone else depends upon for life, I sense the target is near, though.

I have many Muslim friends who treat their wives l...

2010-11-12T06:27:26.662-07:00

I have many Muslim friends who treat their wives like queens while my uncle who claims to be a Christian orders my aunt around like a slave for almost 50 years now. Some of what the media reports is Arab culture and has nothing to do with Islam. Some of the beheadings you see in the videos going around promoting Islamophobia are actually Saudi Arabian government carrying out capital punishment according to their laws. Lots of disinfo out there by evil men trying to get support for a war with Iran. We need a boogeyman to go to war with and since communism is dead except in the United States, the flavor of the month is Islam.

Thank you Mr. Grigg. Be assured that I have nothi...

2010-11-12T05:37:29.588-07:00

Thank you Mr. Grigg. Be assured that I have nothing but total respect for you as a man and as a brilliant, talented writer.
There's a philosophical reason for my screen name but it would be a long story so I won't go into it.

Lemuel to the rescue......!!! I can solve this wh...

2010-11-12T01:54:35.068-07:00

Lemuel to the rescue......!!!

I can solve this whole question easily, with one simple line. Here it is (drumroll, please,)...

<<<==[Human beings always, and for the last 5,000 years, create, and have created, God in their own image.]==>>>

"Christians" in some parts of the USA create Jesus in their own image: Vengeful, arrogant, hate-filled, bloodthirsty, pompous, rigid, war-mongering, murderous, violent, vicious, and just plain NASTY. Read the Left Behind books.

I doubt that any of them follow the essays of our gentle Mr. Grigg, but those of us present here who do, know that I speak the truth.

Other Christians in the USA, and probably everyone reading this, create Jesus in THEIR own image: loving, forgiving, gentle, kind, patient, peaceful, compassionate, merciful, humble, joyous, helpful, beautiful, holy, and completely NICE.

And ALL of them and us claim to be "Christians."

I remember a story from Iraq, of a soldier who was torturing an innocent Iraqi, who asked the soldier, "Why are you doing this to me?" and the soldier replied, "So you will understand the love of Jesus." How do we suppose this makes the Muslims feel about Jesus and Christians?

The fact is, those like White Buffalo who have seen a few Arab countries, think they know what Islam is. Wrong. That is how the people of those primitive tribal societies have created Allah in THEIR own image: Vengeful, hateful, pompous, bloodthirsty, rigid, unforgiving, and evil. Those are people who can lock the doors of a burning girls' school and burn all the little girls to death because they were runnung out in a panic without their heads covered.

Then you have the Muslims of Lebanon, Turkey, Syria, Jordan,Morocco, France, and Egypt: These are places where women wear bikinis on the beach, wear jewelry and makeup, and are doctors, businesswomen, teachers, TV announcers, and more, all without headscarves, and are treated with respect by the men. For them, Allah is merciful, kind, compassionate, forgiving, and tolerant towards other faiths.

(Six hundred years ago when Christians in France and Germany were burning witches at the stake, torturing scientists and healers, and massacring Jews and Muslims en masse, Christians and Jews in Islamic Spain were accepted as full members of the community and allowed to worship in their own places in their own way. Doctors and scholars left primitive, barbaric, violent Europe to study medicine, astronomy, classical literature, mathematics and more in the universities of Cairo and Baghdad.)

And all of these different people call themselves "Muslims" and claim THEY, and THEY ALONE, know what Allah wants, and what Allah says, and how Allah wants them to behave.

They have each of them created Allah in their own image. Just like we "Christians" individually create Jesus and God in our own image.

As Mr. Grigg and I concluded in a prior discussion, all generalizations are wrong. (;-D)

So, people, please stop tarring all Muslims with the brush of Osama bin Laden and Prince Nayef, (Head of the Saudi Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice,) and maybe, just maybe, the Muslims will stop tarring all Christians with the brush of Tim LaHaye and the Irish Republican Army. (Not to mention the evangelical soldier mentioned above.)

Jesus, whom many of us here follow, said it perfectly: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.... A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Many tens or hundreds of millions of Muslims, contrary to our experience of tribal Saudi and Yemeni and Somali assholes, and our media's pot-stirring in the service of the Republican war machine, interpret Islam and the words of the Prophet the same way.

Nice people worship a nice God. Nasty people worship a nasty God. Does any of this make sense?

- Lemuel Gulliver.

"we, according to you, should rely on Oklahom...

2010-11-11T21:26:22.107-07:00

"we, according to you, should rely on Oklahoma values and laws to guide us."

I do not find anything in the statement I wrote that said we should rely on Oklahoma values, I don't even know if a state can have values. As to the rest of your comments, I wonder who you were writing to. Ah well, such is life. When I meet up with a tea partier, I'll tell them you said hello. Oh, I did read the bill too, missed the racist part, sorry, have a great life.

whitebuffalo, I appreciate your candor, value your...

2010-11-11T21:09:25.771-07:00

whitebuffalo, I appreciate your candor, value your opinions, and flat-out love your screen name.

liberranter said: Whitebuffalo, maybe you've &...

2010-11-11T20:46:52.908-07:00

liberranter said: Whitebuffalo, maybe you've "been there," (as a mercenary member of the legions, might I assume?

Sadly, your assumption is correct. Sorta. I fought in the first Gulf War. I was indeed a gung-ho Marine. But your assumption that my experience there made me anti-Muslim is the exact opposite. To make a long story short I had an epiphany of many levels including the realization that hey, these "ragheads" are actually human beings!! So why was I being told to kill them?! I did indeed have many interesting thought provoking conversations with Arabic Muslims. But I also made some clear headed observations while there as well. Again, I go back to the treatment of women within an Islamic run culture. (BTW have you ever actually been inside an Islamic run culture? I'm sure you know that what people theorize and how such ideas play out in reality are two different things). Let me be clear: I do not wish any harm to anyone, Muslim or otherwise. I merely contend that Islam is a way of life that is the opposite of a Liberty loving way of life. Psuedo-ad hominem attacks on me do not disprove my arguement.
And FYI, I completely renounce my "service to my country".

I hate to burst your bubble, Not ashamed to be an ...

2010-11-11T16:27:20.921-07:00

I hate to burst your bubble, Not ashamed to be an Okie, but the fact of the matter is that this little law was proposed to pander to the basest fears of the ignorant masses in this state. Apparently those of us who voted against this waste of taxpayer money actually read the unenforceable bit of institutional racism. There is no threat of Oklahoma or any state imposing Sharia law. There never will be a threat, unless and until the idiots that propose that there is no constitutional basis for the separation of church and state. That would mean those Christians and certain uninformed tea partiers who have been whipped into a religiofascist frenzy by their supposed leaders to enact unenforceable laws. Given that I am one of the thirty percent that actually read the bill, I could not vote for it. It does away with (all) international law, and by logical extension, Federal law.

We already are plagued with so-called populists who are defacto whores of whatever lobby pays them the most. We already have a population who follows religious leaders who tell them, "It's a sin to think for yourself. Let God do your thinking through (sic) me." (This is a direct quote stated to me just before I quit believing that Christians had any moral relevance.) We have one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the nation, our schools are underfunded, our divorce rate leads the nation, yet, we, according to you, should rely on Oklahoma values and laws to guide us. Well, sir, no thank you. The money spent on pushing this bill to the ballot should have been spent elsewhere, say on our rotting cross-town highway, or our underfunded schools, or perhaps even the homeless whom have ONE shelter to rely upon in the capital city.

Heh, we needed that law like we needed a hole in our head, and I am glad I was one of the thirty percent who actually have the ability to think and read for myself, rather than letting some illiterate, self-styled religious leader tell me what to think.

Every time I have tried to write a reply I find my...

2010-11-11T15:52:17.606-07:00

Every time I have tried to write a reply I find myself having to write a small book referencing all the recent events that made this amendment important; so let me make it simple. Seventy percent of the voters, approved that amendment. No, we are not ignorant red necks that are led by the nose. We do read of the events in the world today and see the problems coming. We think it is important to say that no other country, international organization (UN) or religion has the authority to determine our laws. No one is saying that Muslims can't follow Sharia, unless Sharia violates our laws. The age of sexual consent is 16 in Oklahoma, everyone here already knows that it is younger in Sharia. You use a twelve year old girl in Oklahoma, Sharia is no excuse and you become one of those more than the average number in prison. The Mormons, dropped multiple wives, can the Muslims agree to drop their laws that conflict with Oklahoma? It has nothing to do with Washington's war with the Middle East or with some jerk of a District Attorney, just that if you want to live in Oklahoma, you follow Oklahoma Law.

I would like to offer an alternative view of the q...

2010-11-11T12:29:48.250-07:00

I would like to offer an alternative view of the question as written on the ballot. I was not familiar with the hype surrounding it since I rarely watch TV and so when I read it during my research on the eve of the election my initial interpretation was "should the courts in Oklahoma use international law or Sharia law in deciding cases," or something more or less along those lines. Of course I would answer in the negative, we already have enough collectivist and totalitarian pollution in the legal system without importing it from elsewhere. After asking around amongst several people I am acquainted with (intelligent people, not ignorant redncks as people like to assume Oklahomans are) I find that this was a common interpretation.

After reading the backstory presented in the piece here I can see where this was a political jab and a publicity stunt for one of our homegrown petty-dictators. I think, however, that a great number of us saw this as a sort of referendum on the incorporation of international law and/or Sharia law.

I don't need to read such books - I've act...

2010-11-11T11:02:33.955-07:00

I don't need to read such books - I've actually been to the middle east (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait)

Whitebuffalo, maybe you've "been there," (as a mercenary member of the legions, might I assume?), but do you 1) speak Arabic, 2) know any Muslim Arabs on a deeply personal level, or 3) spend any time in the homes of Muslim Arab residents of the Middle East? I do/have done all three of the above and I can say without qualification that your portrayal of Arab Muslims, their religion, their political outlook, and their customs (especially pertaining to inter-gender relations) is one big "broad brush" generalization based on the lamest of stereotypes. If you knew any Arab Muslims in number on a personal basis, you would know that such stereotyped generalizations as have cemented themselves into the uninformed Western mind are merely one small aspect of the Arab Muslim world, practices adhered to by one subset of the greater culture that is not even close to a majority.

More to the point: I am acquainted with or know on a deeply personal level dozens of Arab Muslims and their families, from the three countries you mention as well as others from the Levant and North Africa, all of whom are as different from each other as are any dozen Americans of the "Christian" faith. To paint all with a broad brush is an exercise in intellectual indolence and does a disservice both to the individual (or any faith) AND one's own self-respect.

Btw Mr. Grigg, I am the anonymous of November 10, ...

2010-11-11T05:39:20.298-07:00

Btw Mr. Grigg, I am the anonymous of November 10, 2010 9:23 PM (couldn't get the system to use my whitebuffalo id?) Anyway, I agree with your non-aggression principles. That's why I stated my revulsion to Amerika's attacks in the middle east. My point is that Islam and Liberty are incompatible with each other. The question is how do we live and let live? My view is that we do so by first recognizing the differences and then stay out of each others affairs.

As to anonymous November 10, 2010 11:48 PM, "If I may offer a suggestion, you should try reading a book on Islamic jurisprudence or a website run by a real Muslim religious scholar before swallowing the 'opinion' of the many professional Islamophobes among us today"

I don't need to read such books - I've actually been to the middle east (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait) I have witnessed firsthand the treatment of women under sharia law. I have one word for you: burka. Recognizing the incompatibility of Liberty with Islam doesn't make me an "Islamaphobe". Nor does it make me a defender of Christianity's past evil deeds. As I made clear, I am not a Christian. The irrationality of those who used Christianity to do bad things should not be used to defend the bad things being done by Islam. Let me be clear: I have no desire to try and change Islam. I merely say that Liberty does not live within Islamic the culture.