tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post2795169881793706581..comments2017-04-13T04:47:21.148-06:00Comments on Pro Libertate: Steven Pinker's Statist GospelWilliam N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-43208106664478352812011-10-31T08:23:25.374-06:002011-10-31T08:23:25.374-06:00Messed up the Shermer link.Messed up the <a href="http://theamericanscholar.org/getting-better-all-the-time/" rel="nofollow">Shermer link</a>.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-41191412956011533832011-10-30T22:08:59.249-06:002011-10-30T22:08:59.249-06:00A review you do link to, Peter Singer in the NYT, ...A review you do link to, Peter Singer in the NYT, also refutes your simplistic take: "Those conclusions are not always what one might expect. Yes, as already noted, the state monopoly on force is important, and the spread of commerce creates incentives for cooperation and against violent conflict. The empowerment of women does, Pinker argues, exercise a pacifying influence, and the world would be more peaceful if women were in charge. But he also thinks that the invention of printing, and the development of a cosmopolitan “Republic of Letters” in the 17th and 18th centuries helped to spread ideas that led to the humanitarian revolution. That was pushed further in the 19th century by popular novels like “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” and “Oliver Twist” that, by encouraging readers to put themselves in the position of someone very different from themselves, expanded the sphere of our moral concern."<br /><br />Ignoring the decade-old quotes and the rant on Hobbes and Rousseau, gets us to a full sentence quote: “A regime that trawls for drug users or other petty delinquents will get a certain number of violent people as a by-catch, further thinning the ranks of the violent people who remain on the streets.” Well, that sentence is taken out of context. Luckily that section is available on <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=J7ATQb6LZX0C&pg=PT167#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">Google Books</a>. Starting at the -------, read the next two pages, ending with "The result is that the United States imprisons far more people than it should, with disproportionate harm falling on African American communities who have been stripped of large numbers of men." Doesn't sound like a Drug Warrior.<br /><br />I can't go on after this: "...Pinker’s claim that humanity has evolved beyond violence..." Also, suffice to say you haven't watched or read the links I used from your piece if you think 170 million people slaughtered in the 20th century is remotely comparable to the slaughter humans have endured over the previous 200 centuries.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-65046894846820574282011-10-30T22:08:27.344-06:002011-10-30T22:08:27.344-06:00I've heard you several times now on AntiwarRad...I've heard you several times now on AntiwarRadio, and generally like what I hear. (Although, you didn't get OWS right on the last one, and in general, you can tone down the erudition.) This post is entirely unworthy of your thoughts I've heard so far. Maybe the interviews with Scott are the outliers, but I hope you just have a blind spot that has misled you. <br /><br />First, I have to ask whether you've read the book's 832 pages since October 4.<br /><br />"According to Pinker, since the emergence of the modern secular state in the 18th century there has been a dramatic decline in primitive expressions of aggressive violence." This statement seems to show you didn't even watch the first five minutes of the 2007 TED talk from your first link. In it, he claims decreasing violence is a fractal phenomenon: over millennia, centuries, decades and years, violence has gone down. All he says is that there seems to be a tipping point "at the onset of the Age of Reason in the 16th Century."<br /><br />Going back to the rest of your first sentence: "who has said that he never 'outgrew my conversion to atheism at thirteen,' has written a theodicy – a tract intended to validate the redemptive power of the Leviathan State." Blind spot found - two actually. I see religion as much more important for you, but also anti-statism bias is evident. <br /><br />Applying religious terminology to atheists is a common, and fruitless, ploy that I wouldn't expect you to rely on. Pinker's atheism shouldn't factor into a review of his book. But it seems you can't help yourself: "As is the case with most religious doctrines, Pinker’s theology of the divine State is built on a paradox – in this case the idea that the human tendency toward violence can be eradicated through the scientific application of the same by enlightened people who have supposedly transcended such primitive impulses." (Note I quote entire sentences of your work, thankfully it's shorter so I could quickly read it).Can you point me to where Pinker says personal violence can be eradicated through state violence? Or did I misunderstand you?<br /><br />Michael Shermer has <a href="http://theamericanscholar.org/getting-better-all-the-time/%22" rel="nofollow">relayed</a> some of Pinker's points accurately: "Pinker’s theory is that the better angels of our nature are brought out by the civilizing process of two forces: the top-down rule of law and the bottom-up rule of morals." And he provides a long Pinker quote:<br /><br />"Externally [the top down rule of law], other forces were at work: 'the centralization of state control and its monopolization of violence, the growth of craft guilds and bureaucracies, the replacement of barter with money, the development of technology, the enhancement of trade, the growing webs of dependency among far-flung individuals,' and the like."<br /><br />Part II to follow.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-80520237235427804602011-10-26T08:09:41.657-06:002011-10-26T08:09:41.657-06:00Yeah, I did read a recent article by this Dr. Pink...Yeah, I did read a recent article by this Dr. Pinker's guy, at New Scientist, I think, in which he suggested that Humanity is so much less-violent now, due to a godlike State. <br /><br />How ridiculous! <br /><br />The 20th Century, in Democide, and in State-led Warfare was bloodier than the last 2000 years, of Religious or State killing, combined. <br /><br />This atheist Phd is a True Believer with Blind Faith, in the State.<br /><br />Peace be with you all,<br />Christian Livingstone<br />www.newjerusalemtimes.comChristian Livingstonehttp://www.newjerusalemtimes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-16493954276056399892011-10-25T13:43:51.620-06:002011-10-25T13:43:51.620-06:00Mr. Grigg,
With deep respect and admiration, I re...Mr. Grigg,<br /><br />With deep respect and admiration, I read your posts with appreciation and anticipation. I greatly look forward to your 'treatment' of the Gaddafi murder whodunit (I mean REALLY), and the future of Libya.<br /><br />Finally, I miss your podcasts terribly! Please, won't you update your loyal readers on resumption of your talks!<br /><br />Thanks much for your works!<br /><br />My best,<br />Lily<br />P.S. I wasn't sure where to write with my comments, so I this post looked as good as it gets.Lilynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-70246220330843806502011-10-22T15:43:52.325-06:002011-10-22T15:43:52.325-06:00Anon 3:29:
A fitting response to Pinker's ver...Anon 3:29:<br /><br />A fitting response to Pinker's verbal vomitus that you cite above would be something along the lines of the following:<br /><br />"While it may be that 'burning at the stake' has become rather unfashionable among statist executioners in the modern era, other forms of lethal punishment for apostasy of Caesar worship are quite commonly practiced in its stead. A good example is the use of modern weaponry, heavy and light, to exterminate those who would dare assert their independence from the prevailing Caesarian orthodoxy. Light weapons were used at a place called Ruby Ridge, Idaho, about two decades ago to 'burn at the stake' the family of a man who dared criticize the state and resist its unlawful diktats. Heavier weaponry was used a year later at a little place outside of Waco, Texas, to conduct a mass burning at the stake of another band of heretics who forsook Caesar for their own beliefs. So I guess these people should 'count their blessings' that lead and napalm were used in place of mere fire and faggots."liberranterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00555275410576294081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-65939376358178378332011-10-21T15:29:17.697-06:002011-10-21T15:29:17.697-06:00"In a 2007 TED lecture, Dr. Pinker urged Levi..."In a 2007 TED lecture, Dr. Pinker urged Leviathan’s subjects to count their blessings: A mere century ago, he pointed out, some of them may have been 'burned at the stake for criticizing the king, after a trial that maybe lasted ten minutes.'"<br /><br />Really? This guy believes that in 1907, you could be burned at the stake for criticizing the king? <br /><br />And there's anyone who takes his analysis of history seriously?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-82667418794231715042011-10-21T03:56:43.166-06:002011-10-21T03:56:43.166-06:00MoT,
I'm sorry you've had that experienc...MoT, <br /><br />I'm sorry you've had that experience. Losing a friend over the years is painful. Like watching someone commit suicide in slow motion. There is still hope, however. <br /><br />Dorothy Day came up with another little-known quip you might like: "When you render to God the things that are God's, there is nothing left for Caesar."Sans Authoritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-6975990411973478822011-10-20T23:43:04.730-06:002011-10-20T23:43:04.730-06:00Thanks for the Tolkien reference, SA, I'm goin...Thanks for the Tolkien reference, SA, I'm going to point that out to my son who admires him very much. There is a friend of mine who back in the 70's did everything in his power to avoid the draft and by the skin of his teeth succeeded. Fast forward to the present and he is a Fox News junkie who routinely yells at the TV (which never goes off and rarely leaves that channel) and advocates the very things as a young man he ran away from. I've asked him time and again how his Catholic upbringing squared with his present rabid attitude towards anyone who doesn't subscribe to that mindset and to be honest I was greatly saddened by the encounter.MoThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13996714804361467430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-7162214640785790432011-10-20T15:58:55.684-06:002011-10-20T15:58:55.684-06:00Mr. Grigg,
As a Catholic and a voluntaryist, I a...Mr. Grigg, <br /><br />As a Catholic and a voluntaryist, I apologize on behalf of the Statist Catholics, who believe that the State is the fourth Person of the Trinity, and that War is the eighth sacrament. <br /><br />They are a scandal. <br /><br />There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that says a Catholic must, as a matter of faith or morals, believe that the coercive State should or must exist. <br /><br />I concur with another Catholic thinker, J.R.R. Tolkien, as he wrote in a 1943 letter to his son, Christopher: <br /><br />"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) -— or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! [he was joking about that]. . . If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and the process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people. If people were in the habit of referring to ‘King George’s council, Winston and his gang’, it would do a long way to clearing thought, and reducing the frightful landslide into Theyocracy. . . . The proper study of Man is anything but Man; and the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity."Sans Authoritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-27911297869610704582011-10-20T08:24:02.709-06:002011-10-20T08:24:02.709-06:00JDL- I think you get the idea that the mentioned A...JDL- I think you get the idea that the mentioned Atheism was an attack on Atheism. you missed the point of his stating that his lifelong opinion's were formed when he was thirteen. It's the age that's important. He also changed from Rousseau to Thomas Hobbes for his concepts. In other words, he let us see wherein Pinker obtained his concepts. Then Mr. Grigg outlined the difference in government and the individual to show that Pinker was incorrect. At no time did he point out a problem with Atheism. Personally, I don't think Pinker is an Idiot, I know too many well educated Christian Socialists that think just like him. I disagree with them, but they use logic of the collective against my logic of the individual very effectively sometimes. But, I would suggest that you put aside the defense of your beliefs to see the real point of the argument. Just a short aside. The German Army soldiers wore belt buckles that said "God With Us"; however the elite SS that were the famous "Stormtroopers and Concentration Camp administrators" were required to renounce Christianity before they could join Hitler's SS.Retreadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-70134291671604394382011-10-20T07:22:55.668-06:002011-10-20T07:22:55.668-06:00JdL, I find Pinker's belief in State coercion ...JdL, I find Pinker's belief in State coercion to be morally unacceptable. I've made the same objection to the Christian Right in several previous essays. <br /><br />Pinker's "conversion to atheism" is his own business. His evangelism on behalf of what Tonybee calls the cult of "collective human power" is not. Anybody who promotes the supposedly redemptive use of aggressive violence strikes me as morally suspect, at best.William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-89928389494580028062011-10-20T07:04:22.878-06:002011-10-20T07:04:22.878-06:00Pinker is an idiot, but in opening your column wit...Pinker is an idiot, but in opening your column with a statement highlighting his atheism, do you mean to imply that atheists are, as a group, less moral than theists? If so, I would challenge that assertion.<br /><br />Hitler's troops wore belt buckles emblazoned "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). Other examples of the most obscene actions performed under color of religion are legion.<br /><br />I don't hold your religious beliefs against you, but I'm not sure you return the favor with respect to my religious non-beliefs.JdLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-24948688825297003622011-10-19T23:37:08.631-06:002011-10-19T23:37:08.631-06:00TJP,
The point is not the capability or efficiency...TJP,<br />The point is not the capability or efficiency with which individuals can kill each other, but that without the influence of the state they rarely do. The body count only really starts to show when states get involved. It is the state that trains people to use the latest technology against someone they've never met and couldn't possibly have a personal beef with. If you had a Barrett .50 would you set up on your roof and pick off people at the corner store? I don't think you would. But dress everyone up in uniforms and select different anthems, and the head shots begin.<br /><br />Guns don't kill people, the state kills people.Isaachttp://www.thestanfielddoctrine.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-7001257615385553362011-10-19T12:18:16.529-06:002011-10-19T12:18:16.529-06:00My apologies for the negativity, but it probably h...My apologies for the negativity, but it probably has a lot less to do with a social contract than it does with the efficiency with which men can kill each other. Personal arms were affordable and quite deadly at a distance by the end of the 18th century.TJPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-76526289739649415312011-10-18T22:15:45.210-06:002011-10-18T22:15:45.210-06:00Herman-Hoppe's systemitization isn't as go...Herman-Hoppe's systemitization isn't as good or as Lysander Spooner's, Murray Rothbards, or Roberet Long's, but there are quite a few plausible systems that do not rely on a reference to revelation.WorBluxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17237331780596277891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-38026531807672831932011-10-18T21:36:34.782-06:002011-10-18T21:36:34.782-06:00Another well-written post, Will!Another well-written post, Will!Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16565620274260288512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-16213226965525923202011-10-18T20:25:34.701-06:002011-10-18T20:25:34.701-06:00I've never been anything but an atheist, and y...I've never been anything but an atheist, and yet I don't have any trouble perceiving the objective moral ethics of natural rights. Having studied the works of most major religious teachers (Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc.) I find that much of what they taught doesn't require belief in the supernatural. One finds heaven on Earth through the ultimate individual expression of forgiveness and letting go of attachment. <br /><br />Hans Herman-Hoppes work in which he shows the undeniable fact of self-ownership needs to be conveyed to the state-worshiping, collectivist atheists (like those who raised me) as their views are irrational and dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-87477619753690273962011-10-18T20:18:50.602-06:002011-10-18T20:18:50.602-06:00Great article, William. Thank you.
Pinker's d...Great article, William. Thank you.<br /><br />Pinker's delusion is all too plain to see. Or is it simply 'business' with him?jameshttp://www.winterpatriot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-64527446232752042372011-10-18T19:51:56.296-06:002011-10-18T19:51:56.296-06:00no need to post
Greetings Will
Shared
Thank you...no need to post<br /><br />Greetings Will<br /><br />Shared<br /><br />Thank you for writing this<br /><br />Doc Ellis 124<br /><br />no need to postDoc Ellishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08543939658083915285noreply@blogger.com