Comments on Pro Libertate: The "New Police Professionalism": Serious Christians Need Not Apply

There is now a book out with the technical facts o...

2010-10-16T15:11:31.045-06:00

There is now a book out with the technical facts of this case, as well as the court documents, on Amazon.com and down-loadable to Kindle Readers and PC's called 'Are There Christian Cops in Austin Texas'.
Included is information on Police History around that time and the surrounding culture.

"He (Perez) has well-developed personal belie...

2010-02-11T19:54:33.255-07:00

"He (Perez) has well-developed personal beliefs..." which, according to supervisors, leave him unfit for duty.

Funny though, were his personal beliefs, let us say, of the homosexual variety, and say, he were a cross dresser during his time away from duty, and let us say he engaged in 'recreational' sex with multiple partners and was proud to wear his dress blues and lead the annual 'Gay/Lesbian/Transgender/ETC Parade'; would the brass have determined him unfit for duty because of his well developed personal beliefs? I think not.

Mr. Grigg, The person reporting in the negative f...

2010-01-03T11:59:01.876-07:00

Mr. Grigg, The person reporting in the negative for Officer Perez, may be intentionally distorting the case. Officer Perez was only suspended one time at his current position with the Pfluggerville Police Dept. and it was for not removing the shoes and shoelaces from a suspect before placing him in a holding cell. To put this suspension in a perspective, not to distantly, Austin Police Dept. Officer Quintana was suspended for 15 days for breaking into his girlfriends house, yet would go on to shoot a man in the back and later be given an 'Officer of the Year Award.' I was at the trial and one of his main officers Sgt. Zumwalt testified and it was shown on a video screen, she wrote, 'Seems competent, just needs to work on the little things.' She also added 'He genuinely appears to want to help people both spiritually and physically.' The city defense lawyer mounted personal attacks on Officer Perez at every chance and when the jury deliberated, it asked for his performance records at Pfluggerville but was denied because the evidence had not been placed into evidence. Had his supervisor from there, testified favorably for him, I feel the jury would have been drawn to the conclusion that the other defendants had used religious reasons to resolve their personal conflicts with Officer Perez. I feel that his lawyer may have been incompetent, to not have that supervisor testify. Michael Brooks

(I mistakenly deleted the following comment, which...

2009-12-19T06:25:40.662-07:00

(I mistakenly deleted the following comment, which was received earlier this morning)

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "The "New Police Professionalism": Serious Christia...":

You will all be relieved to hear that after 5 days of testimony this week, involving 2 seperate chain of commands, 5 inches of documentation, 2 videos, and Ramon Perez testifying and unfortunatly purgering himself, the jury found Mr Perez was not truthful in his claims and the defendants were found not liable. Ironically, he has already been suspended without pay on two ocassions from the Pflugerville PD for officer safety issues.

Will, as usual your article was right on target. ...

2009-11-16T10:47:02.634-07:00

Will, as usual your article was right on target.

Any update on the case? What about Mr. Perez...is he still in law enforcement?

Last Anonymous, That is simply not true, he stated...

2009-09-24T15:39:20.938-06:00

Last Anonymous, That is simply not true, he stated in an Article with Austin American Statesman "That if you are a police officer then you have an ordination by God to protect and preserve life". This means that it would be "sin" not to use his weapon under the correct circumstances. Please show some documentation to your point that he wouln not use his weapon if he had to.

This article is full of half truths. The real trut...

2009-09-23T19:50:34.220-06:00

This article is full of half truths. The real truth is that Mr. Perez, a commissioned police officer may be a wonderful christian man but made more than one comment saying he would NEVER under ANY circumstances, whether it be another officer or citizen be in danger, shoot someone. I am sorry, but that is part of his job and if he can't or won't do that, then he does not need to be a police officer.

5th Court of appeals "affirmed" the dist...

2009-09-08T22:12:45.107-06:00

5th Court of appeals "affirmed" the district courts position not to allow qualified immunity for the defendants. See the link below to review the judges decision.

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/unpub/08/08-50944.0.wpd.pdf

Arguements are scheduled with the 5th Circuit Cour...

2009-08-22T22:44:42.912-06:00

Arguements are scheduled with the 5th Circuit Court Appeals in New Orleans La, this September 1, 2009. What is being argued is the right of the defendants to obtian qualified immunity in an attempt to overturn the lower courts decsion that would of green lighted the trial. COA is expected to once again fail.

Mr. Grigg,The trial that was scheduled for Monday,...

2008-10-13T23:37:00.000-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

The trial that was scheduled for Monday, September 2008 did not occur because the City of Austin filed a pre-trial motion appeal to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans. This was filed with in hours of the trial. This is largly considered to be a move of desparation and delay tactic. Trial has been delayed by at least 6 months. It is unlikely the COA will prevail at this level either.

Mr. Grigg:This law suite is scheduled to go to Fed...

2008-05-16T00:25:00.000-06:00

Mr. Grigg:

This law suite is scheduled to go to Federal Western Court on September 08, 2008. The discovery phase of this process has been completed and all I can say is everything is looking good. Many experts have reviewed the case and are challenging the unjust termination.

cowbot: I agree with your statements. As I initial...

2007-12-08T20:25:00.000-07:00

cowbot: I agree with your statements. As I initially stated, my problem was with how distracting the religious hype was from the meat of the article. The ensuing comments only further distracted from that.

Admittedly I have a hair trigger when it comes to religion, but I think my initial stance was justified given the obvious bias of the author and commentors that dramatized the role of religion in the issue.

Thank you for so eloquently stating where our collective priorities should have been. :)

Justin's energetic rants here take the discussion ...

2007-12-08T17:33:00.000-07:00

Justin's energetic rants here take the discussion too far afield with a shotgun scattershot indictment of religiosity in general. Responding to his points would not be pertinent to the article.

Mr Grigg's article centers around the state oppressing those who base their moral compass around their religion. It's not easy to be non-partisan in evaluating the extent to which this is a problem in modern America.

Those of us who love liberty, and want to preserve and enhance it, should be in clear opposition to efforts by the state to use the weak science of psychology to categorize us as fit or unfit persons.

Mr. Grigg's thesis - that states have a tendency to demand a form of worship of the state - is a crucial one for us to understand. By viewing the issue as a conflict between liberty and authoritarianism, we see that it matters little whether the enforcers of 'right thinking' represent a secular or theocratic regime.

Thanks for the great blog Mr. Grigg - hope to hear you interviewed by Scott Horton some time.

I'm aware of some of Hitler's views in private, as...

2007-12-04T22:09:00.000-07:00

I'm aware of some of Hitler's views in private, as well as those of some of his men etc. But it pays to note the use of religion to make people blindly follow authority figures etc.

Also, I don't wish death on almost anyone, but when someone is stupid enough to choose a figment of their imagination over their immediate physical well being, when there is no proof of God, but surely a proof of your current life, friends, family etc... that is an irrational choice and one which I feel deftly illustrates the evolutionary mechanism of survival of the fittest. Those who would rather die for figments of their imagination are killed off, thus leaving those who prefer to live another day based on what they actually know exists to ensure their genetic lineage and hopefully children who will share the same tendency to trust reality and value their own lives more than the notion of an imaginary sky god.

If you believe so much in God and the afterlife, why do you bother getting treatment if you're sick? Why not just die and hurry to what you claim to believe is such an infinitely greater and glorious eternity with your God?

Because a part of you trusts the physical assurance of the NOW. That's your heritage telling you to value your life and not give it up over myths about a man in the sky no more real than the stories of Zeus or Apollo or any of the other countless Gods which man has believed in and subsequently left behind on the road to enlightenment.

Oh, and should I point out the hypocrisy of Christians trying to act like Atheism equates to Genocide? Should we have a look at the number of deaths in the name of God which resulted from the Crusades? The Inquisitions? From "missionaries" in the New World and elsewhere who converted or slaughtered the people as heathens who were often treated as not even human unless they converted to Christianity?

Christianity has been a root cause for the slaughter of "others". Anyone who didn't believe. Who had a different faith, or different culture etc. Atheism has simply been a characteristic of a few men who killed over the pursuit of power or nationalism etc. Hitler didn't wage a war on Christianity, he waged a war on the world to create a new German empire modeled after the Roman Empire. It was a nationalistic move to wipe out anyone he saw as undesirable, not just the Jews, but gays, political dissidents, gypsies, and many others.

A hatred of gays is a quality Christians share with the Nazi party. The bible clearly states in several cases to kill them, and even goes so far as to advocate raping innocent girls rather than allow a male guest to be sodomized etc.

So while I'm sure you are delighted to jump on my comment directed towards dixiedog, you fail to take into account the entirety of what I wrote... like the part just after that where parents kill their children rather than get them medical treatment because they believe that the "power of prayer" will heal them, just as the bible states it will.

I have to say that I have little pity for people who stubbornly refuse to accept reality and end up giving up their own lives for figments of their imaginations, in spite a wealth of hard evidence proving otherwise.

How is it evil for me to say that the world would be a better place without a person in it who would rather a bunch of people be slaughtered like sheep than speak a few words and live another day? You believe it's ok to cost someone their life because you THINK there is some magical father figure in the sky who will reward you for getting yourself killed... when I KNOW that I'm alive RIGHT NOW and that every aspect of science for the past century at the very least has pointed, with a preponderance of evidence toward the verdict that God does not, and cannot, exist and thusly I should value my PROVABLE life in the here and now over the highly unlikely possibility that some millenias old fairytale about a man in the clouds will reward me with eternity in a blissful castle in the clouds with all my friends and loved ones for foolishly getting myself killed etc.

You can stick with your hypocritical death cult... I'll gladly stick with those of us who actually VALUE humanity and life.

I'd withhold judgment on that in the absence of a ...

2007-12-04T09:14:00.000-07:00

I'd withhold judgment on that in the absence of a good deal more information from unbiased sources.

Surely as a paragon of rationality you're capable of following hyperlinks, aren't you? I would hardly expect any reader to agree with all of my conclusions -- or any of them, for that matter -- but I would expect that people would at least follow the links before concluding that what I've written is entirely without merit.

Hitler and Stalin (a one-time seminarian) both exploited the religious convictions of their subjects while apparently sharing none of them.

The link to the brief essay about Martin Boorman offers a passing reference to something documented in great detail in the transcripts of the Nuremberg Tribunal: The intention of the National Socialist regime was to crush Germany's Christian churches, once the war was won and the Thousand-Year Reich was consolidated.

For a couple of really good treatments of the anti-Christian origins and practices of the Nazi state, I'd suggest Nazi Culture by George Mosse, and Leftism Revisited by Erik Ritter von Kuehneldt-Leddihn.

As for dixiedog, I can only hope that someday you are caught in such a position where you are offered to say you renounce your faith or to get a bullet in the head and you choose the latter. The world will surely be a better place without you in it.

Spoken/written like a proud heir of the modern atheist tradition, which was responsible for the murder of (per the findings of RJ Rummel in his study Death By Government) something on the order of 100 million + human beings. Many millions of them were Christians given the choice you fantasize about imposing on my friend.

For all of the flatulent, self-exalting rhetoric about the quality of your oh-so-evolved brain, the comment quoted above indicates that you spend far too much time dwelling in the reptilian portion of the same.

I'd have to agree with Hypocrite spotter.The artic...

2007-12-04T08:57:00.000-07:00

I'd have to agree with Hypocrite spotter.

The article gets so caught up in hysterics and dramatics about Nazis and Christianity that it painfully detracts from what might be valid concerns in the article.

As Hypocrite spotter stated, moral and ethical behavior is by no means predicated on Christianity. I have a strong feeling that there is more to this case than meets the eye, but we really can't know because it's obvious that this article does nothing to accurately portray the issue, focusing instead on portraying the "victim" as a martyred Christian saint and the police force and society as evil Nazi communist atheists.

It should also be noted that Hitler himself promoted Christianity and Christian values in many of his speeches and writings, especially in Mein Kampf etc.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

It is easy to pick and choose what you want to believe when you ignore all the facts... such as that a devout Christian belief would have you never borrowing money, never asking loans to be repaid, giving the shirt off your back... much less condoning or even participating in the hatred and murder of homosexuals and people of other faiths, such as "witches", wiccans, pagans etc.

The bible is replete with its own horrors, bigotry, and genocides.

You would do well to focus on the facts here and not get so carried away with juvenile drama.

As for dixiedog, I can only hope that someday you are caught in such a position where you are offered to say you renounce your faith or to get a bullet in the head and you choose the latter. The world will surely be a better place without you in it.

Evolution gladly favors those of us with working brains and functioning senses of self-preservation who know that it's a hell of a lot smarter to speak a few words and live another day to bear children and share our message etc, than to refuse to say we don't believe in some imaginary sky god and be killed on the spot for it.

It's like watching someone refuse to get a blood transfusion because of their religious convictions and dying slowly and horribly from it... or worse, the evil sons of bitches who refuse to allow their children medical treatment because of their "faith" and end up killing their innocent children who cannot defend themselves from the mythological homicidal idiocy of their parents etc.

Sure this officer sounds like a great guy and I fully agree with his actions in the case portrayed, as it is portrayed here... but when he seems to share the same beliefs as the rest of you, it does have to make me wonder indeed if he is truly suited as a whole to serve as an officer of the law. I'd withhold judgment on that in the absence of a good deal more information from unbiased sources.

One of the main objectives of military and paramil...

2007-12-04T07:08:00.000-07:00

One of the main objectives of military and paramilitary training is to destroy the natural human empathy of the recruit, his inborn respect and reluctance to hurt others; to make him ready to follow orders, even if these cause unnecessary suffering to others....In that sense, Mr Perez could be considered a failure - his training did not work. Really, the world needs more failures like him.

Amen to that!

I grant that practicing Christians have no exclusive franchise on nobility and empathy. In the case of Ramon Perez, his convictions were the immediate source of his principles, and the identified source of his "problems" with following unethical orders.

One reason I underscored Officer Perez's Christian commitment was to highlight the difference between his conduct and that of so many other professed Christians who have no difficulty doing the kind of things Perez refused to do.

Our nation is lousy with Christians who eagerly support various kinds of institutionalized murder and cruelty -- from illegal war in Iraq (and elsewhere) to officially sanctioned torture. It says much about our predicament that the genuinely Christian behavior of Officer Perez would be such a conspicuous exception among those of us who profess to follow Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't think that an attitude of respect for life...

2007-12-04T04:51:00.000-07:00

I don't think that an attitude of respect for life is exclusive to Christians, or even to religious people as such. Any human being can defend values of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

I think the question here is one of empathy. Mr. Perez saw a fellow human being and treated him as he would have liked to be treated in the same situation, ie, with respect and minimal force.

One of the main objectives of military and paramilitary training is to destroy the natural human empathy of the recruit, his inborn respect and reluctance to hurt others; to make him ready to follow orders, even if these cause unnecessary suffering to others.

When large segments of a society undergo this kind of training (reinforced by a system of macho values communicated constantly via the mass media), and became aggressive and paranoid, then you get a society which is prepared to wage war, to kill, to torture without questioning its motives. Which is what is happening to America.

In that sense, Mr Perez could be considered a failure - his training did not work. Really, the world needs more failures like him.

DixiedogYou quite aptly say folk who possess a gen...

2007-12-03T21:07:00.000-07:00

Dixiedog
You quite aptly say folk who possess a genuine Christian worldview will either have to be ready to lose jobs, lose freedom, lose material, and inevitably at some point even lose life itself in America, not the Sudan, Cuba, Soviet Union, or a China. Otherwise, you're a fake.
This describes exactly the situation in which conscientious objectors have found themselves when resisting the government's imperative that they commit murder on the government's behalf -- a position for which they have been widely vilified as "cowards" or "traitors".

I find it interesting that all the positive attrib...

2007-12-03T17:26:00.000-07:00

I find it interesting that all the positive attributes associated with Mr. Perez are linked by the author to his Christian beliefs. It's as though Mr. Perez couldn't have acted responsibly or appropriately if it were not for his religion. It's a shame that a good police officer should lose his job for doing the right thing, but doing the right thing is not predicated on being Christian.

Considering how much effort was spent associating society, and the Austin police force, with Nazi Germany, I find it appropriate to point out that many Christians are equally "Nazi-like" in their approach to homosexuality. In fact, in contrast to the universal and total intolerance the church shows toward gays, the police department in question may have had other problems with Mr. Perez not mentioned in the cases here.

Mr. Perez may have acted honorably in these cases, but being a devout Christian indicates to me that he's less likely to be honorable to all of our citizens. There is no room for hatred, bigotry, and oppression in our police or our society, and christian churches preach their share of that. Clean up your own house first.

Smells like christian propaganda to me. I bet the...

2007-12-03T17:23:00.000-07:00

Smells like christian propaganda to me. I bet there's a lot more to this story than this spin merchant is letting on.

I don't think you should apply for a job in the bu...

2007-12-03T16:24:00.000-07:00

I don't think you should apply for a job in the bureaucracy if you have little tolerance for "petty bureaucratic policy."

Still, this kind of nonsense sounds perfectly believable.

Pasted this from Austin Chronicle Comments Support...

2007-01-14T12:34:00.000-07:00

Pasted this from Austin Chronicle Comments
Support APD!!! by guest | hide/show
Who is this idiot that wrote this article? Have you ever been a police officer and do you know what they really go through? The rule on the streets is "are you a danger to yourself or others?" If two officers are working together and one of them won't do what is necessary to protect himself than he is leaving the second one open to injury and possibly death.
Making ignorant accusations about the actions of the people who sacrifice their privacy, rights, family life, and health to protect us should be illegal. If we had more good citizens and less free loading losers, these articles wouldn't be written. More people need to support our police and stop trying to criticize them for a job that most people aren't brave enough to do.

01-12-2007

To Guest of 1-12-07 by guest | hide/show
Based on what you say former APD Officer Joel Fulmmer should have continued beating the already hand cuffed suspect. But he did what is senior officers told him to for their safety, and beat on the suspect some more even though he was faced down head in the dirt and hand cuffed while being tazed. He lost his job doing the wrong thing. Yet you probably would support him to. What about the mentally disabled man sleeping at the bus stop when on video he never fought with the officer. I guess he did nothing wrong because after all he could have hurt the officer. And the mere perception of that is to break his nose anyways? How much is a drop of blood worth to you when it comes from a deceased American GI out fighting for freedom in foreign lands. Is it worth beating some one inspite of his or her sacrifice. Or do you expect your freedom as an officer to violate civil liberties of passive suspects justified in the shed blood of these brave soldiers. I suggest you turn in your badge and enlist in the military and go face an IED. See if your sorry feelings would not change. If you are still a cop you need therapy! Do not dishonor the constitution and the sacrifice of others.

SEMPER FI 01-13-2007

A self-righteous, morally superior Christian? Is ...

2007-01-08T12:33:00.000-07:00

A self-righteous, morally superior Christian? Is there any other kind?

ramon,Godspeed! make that change! :-) stand...

2007-01-05T20:28:00.000-07:00

ramon,

Godspeed! make that change! :-) stand...