tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post116421808909121399..comments2017-04-13T04:47:21.148-06:00Comments on Pro Libertate: Review of the News, November 22William N. Grigghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14368220509514750246noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164647502717226032006-11-27T10:11:00.000-07:002006-11-27T10:11:00.000-07:00A Radical Whig in Chattanooga:You nailed with........A Radical Whig in Chattanooga:<BR/><BR/>You nailed with.............<BR/><BR/>The police involved were either poorly trained, incredibly stupid, or simply vicious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164645203986391982006-11-27T09:33:00.000-07:002006-11-27T09:33:00.000-07:00Greetings All, I know I'm coming in on this a li...Greetings All,<BR/><BR/> I know I'm coming in on this a little late, but does anybody remember Rodney King? If I remember correctly, the reason that the police struck him repeatedly with their billies was that the Tasers used against him failed to do what they were intended to do; incapacitate him. <BR/> In the case of the student (who appears to be much much smaller than Rodney King and was probably sober or not otherwise on drugs), he was already cuffed and "passive" on the floor. There were what - 4 or 5 police officers. Face it, these days most cops spend alot more time in the gym than they do in the coffee & doughnut shop. Two of them could have easily "frog marched" the student out to the car, taken him to the station, & booked him.<BR/> However, what did they do? In order to convince the student to "march", they used the Tasers on him. What they managed to do was to further the "voluntary" incapacitation into "involuntary" incapacitation. I doubt wether after the 1st or 2nd Taser shock that the fellow was capable of walking.<BR/> The police involved were either poorly trained, incredibly stupid, or simply vicious.<BR/> As our local police are increasingly "nationalized", the "protect and serve" will continue to change into "destroy and conquer".A Radical Whig in Chattanoogahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08489464838153487468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164639820233594872006-11-27T08:03:00.000-07:002006-11-27T08:03:00.000-07:00Cell phone shooting:http://www.alexanderjason.com/...Cell phone shooting:<BR/><BR/>http://www.alexanderjason.com/shreveport.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164639675576492162006-11-27T08:01:00.000-07:002006-11-27T08:01:00.000-07:00Rick:You wrote: but i would disagree with starting...Rick:<BR/><BR/>You wrote: but i would disagree with starting one higher. why? because you just escalated the incident. warnings go a long way! <BR/><BR/> The citizens expect cops to do certain things. I don't think most would expect them to sacrifice themselves by dancing with bad guys and never going above a subject's level of force. If a copper isn't to go one above, how will he ever gain control of an arrestee? The ONLY way he'll gain control by not going one higher is if the bad guy decides to give in. <BR/><BR/>It would be like a boxing match. The bad guy starts throwing punches at da man. The fuzz can't do anything more than throw punches? If he goes to pepper or baton, he escalated his use, and properly so -IMHO. <BR/><BR/>I certainly agree that warninigs go a long way. I believe people deserve the benefit of the doubt, and repeated warnings and commands during encounters could resolve a situation without a higher level of force being used. They also help passersby and other witnesses understand what is really happeninig, and what the cops are trying to accomplish.<BR/><BR/> You also wrote: but this i will say, in the military, saying you "thought you saw something," after you've shot a person does not usually fly if it later comes back that they were unarmed and had nothing threating on them, and should not fly.<BR/><BR/>A person's belief and perception at the time of a use of force incident is what needs to be considered and given the most weight, not the evidence discovered after the fact. <BR/>In many cases citizens are shot while pretending to be armed, armed with a BB gun, etc. I'll post a link to an analysis of one particular incident I'm aware of. In it you'll see two different angles as seen from a cruiser camera. In one angle, one might say unjustified shooting. Seeing through the other angle one might say justified. But after the smoke clears all learn the "gun" was a cell phone. It was being held like a pistol. The cops "believed" the guy had a gun. In fact, at one point a cop is seen ducking to avoid being shot by the silly little cell phone. Should he have waited to be shot by a real gun so he can be absolutley certain it is a real gun? I think not.<BR/><BR/>Rick, I don't want to beat this thing to death, and it is not my intention to start a heated debate. The only reason I keep picking at this is because there are too many misconceptions out there about use of force situations. There are many opinions, and just as many questions about high profile cases. This is a good thing. But there aren't enough explanations from public officials describing why somone did what they did. This almost always has something to do with a decision from the legal bureau or insurance company for whatever agency. And yes, there are too many instances of rotten thugs using excessive force.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164613132351076042006-11-27T00:38:00.000-07:002006-11-27T00:38:00.000-07:00Will –You have the best blog on the net. As far as...Will –<BR/><BR/>You have the best blog on the net. As far as your statement, "When it comes to protecting individual rights, too many Americans are examining the issue through the wrong end of the telescope, as it were. They tend to obsess over distant and improbable threats posed by governments half-way around the world, while ignoring or minimizing the very tangible dangers to liberty posed by the government ruling us right now. Americans also dwell on the atrocities committed by the worst regimes in history – National Socialist Germany, Soviet Russia, and other mega-murdering tyrannies of that type – while ignoring clear and compelling warning signs that our own country is rapidly succumbing to similar totalitarian tendencies right now," you are absolutely right.<BR/><BR/>When I went into the Marine Corps, I swore an oath that said, amongst other things, that I would "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." When a Member of Congress is sworn into office, they swear exactly the same thing. <BR/><BR/>I would like to propose a change to that oath: Instead of swearing to defend the US against "all enemies, foreign and domestic," I believe the oath should be changed so that the military and Congressmen swear to defend the US against "all enemies, domestic and foreign." If history has shown us anything, our fear should be of the totalitarians amongst us, not those on the other side of the globe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164489565642144022006-11-25T14:19:00.000-07:002006-11-25T14:19:00.000-07:00fred,i hear you and i understand your point, but i...fred,<BR/><BR/>i hear you and i understand your point, but i believe i stated later on that an officer doesn't always start at the bottom. now, i would agree with starting at the same level in most instances, but i would disagree with starting one higher. why? because you just escalated the incident. warnings go a long way! and like rikover's paradox, it's the policeman who's gonna have to place his life more at risk. why? because that guy wants it to be said about him that he did everything in his power, and exhausted all of his means to non-violently resolve the problem..... <BR/>i just see too many cops on TV, and in real life, gooing to the gun first. it's danegrous out there for sure, but when all is said and done, the people should not fear the police, yet it is so.<BR/><BR/>now, in the military, we are taught to be peace officers. perhaps your training is/was different. <BR/><BR/>i see too many people getting shot nowadays, and the fault is on both sides. but this i will say, in the military, saying you "thought you saw something," after you've shot a person does not usually fly if it later comes back that they were unarmed and had nothing threating on them, and should not fly.<BR/><BR/>oh well, i guess we just disagree.rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164331410041759882006-11-23T18:23:00.000-07:002006-11-23T18:23:00.000-07:00Uhhhh, try this one instead.http://www.newsnet5.co...Uhhhh, try this one instead.<BR/><BR/>http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10371306/detail.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164330912194709732006-11-23T18:15:00.000-07:002006-11-23T18:15:00.000-07:00Here's yet another Taser incident. They happen mor...Here's yet another Taser incident. They happen more frequently than most realize.<BR/><BR/><BR/>http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10371306/detail.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164330594101933022006-11-23T18:09:00.000-07:002006-11-23T18:09:00.000-07:00Rick,You wrote:officers have an obligation, under ...Rick,<BR/><BR/>You wrote:<BR/><BR/>officers have an obligation, under levels of force, to start at the bottom and work their way to the top.<BR/><BR/>That can be misleading to many becaue it isn't true. No one can really expect an officer to start "at the bottom" and work their way to the top. An officer places himself in peril if he starts too low. The safest option for all is for the officer to be at he same level as the subject, plus one level higher, e.g. a bandit is seen pulling a pistol from his waist band while engaged in a brawl with a rival gangsta. The cop might have about 1, maybe 2-3 seconds to prevent gangsta #1 from punching a hole in the head of gangsta #2 (or whomever the future vicim happens to be). It's unsafe to expect anyone to warn the shooter, spray the shooter, strike the shooter, or whatever if the action must be stopped quickly. In this example there was no lower level of force applied -straight to deadly force. Now dealing with a subject who is using or applying a lower level without escalating is another story. If this is the case, the copper, while telling the dude what he wants him to do so the dude has an opportunity to de-escalate, can be at the same level, plus one to control the one to be arrested. <BR/><BR/>I don't think it's wise for the fuzz to use any form of physical force if there is no intention to arrest a person, excluding certain circumstances such as violent riots, emergencies, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164323828910111152006-11-23T16:17:00.000-07:002006-11-23T16:17:00.000-07:00DD,Good points...I'd like to add too that the merc...DD,<BR/><BR/>Good points...I'd like to add too that the mercenaries that worked for Rome as well as the Germanic tribes that were ingratiated to Rome, or so thought the Romans, were key elements in handing the Roman Empire its own butt when the "barbarian" hoardes invaded and sacked Rome at the end. They say that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it...I add to this that those who ignore history are in the same boat. <BR/><BR/>It seems that the same folks on high in the government who claim that they are protecting us from the invading "barbarian" hoardes are poised to let them in with promises of perks like citizenship, not unlike the Romans. The enemy at the gate will soon be the enemy invited into the gate as Will has so aptly observed.Captain Kirkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04563942938766163570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164301158451627102006-11-23T09:59:00.000-07:002006-11-23T09:59:00.000-07:00all, and after reading that again.....i need to n...all, <BR/><BR/>and after reading that again.....i need to not post until i'm wide awake! :-)rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164301055009871122006-11-23T09:57:00.000-07:002006-11-23T09:57:00.000-07:00all,sorry for the type os on that one. hit the re...all,<BR/><BR/>sorry for the type os on that one. hit the return button instead of preview.rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164300990593508352006-11-23T09:56:00.000-07:002006-11-23T09:56:00.000-07:00fred,that was an interesting point you made about ...fred,<BR/><BR/>that was an interesting point you made about drugs and taser use. here's a link that i invite all to read:<BR/><BR/>http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html<BR/><BR/>that being said, it would behoove the officers to get training on this point, and to warn the citizen, or ask the citizen if they have drugs in their system. it's a simple safety pre-caution, and they do have the time to warn the person. they could use this information as leverage. m for instance:<BR/><BR/>"look sir, ma'am. if you do not cooperate, then we might tase you. and on another note, if you have any drugs in your system, the use of this taser might even cause death. so if you continue to resist, then we will use the taser. and our use of the taser will have this effect upon you: 1) non-drug user...temporary incapacitated; or 2) drug-user...possible death. so, do you still wish to resist us?"<BR/><BR/>that being said, what really got me was the use of the taser on a pregnant woman. now the report does not say at what stage in pregnancy the woman was, but in the use of the taser against women, offciers would free themselves of any liable, and any misconceptions, if they ask the female if she is pregnant. and i would also add that in all cases they need not ask, but only if a "reasonable prudent person" would assume that the person is pregnant. after all, i don't know of anyone who's died from pepper spray. officers have an obligation, under levels of force, to start at the bottom and work their way to the top. in the military, this is what we're taught. as an MP company commander, before any new soldier went on the road, he had to get cleared by me and i always asked him what the levels of force were, and which ones he had available. i was never disappointed. usually a soldier would forget one of the 7, but they always started at the bottom, realizing that not in all cases that will be the case. ( and the one level they usually missed was....the K-9).<BR/><BR/>i wrote ken royce on profinling once and how blacks sometimes get profiled. he brought up a point which i agreed with. blacks tend to commit a mojority of the violent crime, as this is true. but he added police need to know how to profile--meaning screen--the good from the bad. that is to say, "who meets the profile of a trouble maker? let me focus my efforts on him." the folks in that library might want to do this. i wasn't there when the guy got tased, but he looked like a student to me. after all, how many folks go to a college library and hang out until 1130pm? and, BTW, was probably logged on to the computer in front of him which would require student status. ....but i was not there. more is yet to come i'm sure.rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164256492237354772006-11-22T21:34:00.000-07:002006-11-22T21:34:00.000-07:00Will:You wrote: Tabatabainejad was shot five times...Will:<BR/><BR/>You wrote: Tabatabainejad was shot five times – by a Taser, a “non-lethal” weapon that has proved to be quite lethal in too many recorded incidents. I'm of the opinion that providing Tasers to police officers has actually abetted the unnecessary use of force, rather than containing it.<BR/><BR/>Taser has been on many a federal docket. They emerge from the court victorious since most, if not all, Taser related deaths have one thing in common: drugs in the body of the subject (we're talking product liability, not excessive force by thugs).<BR/><BR/>Many agencies seem to be tripping over each other to secure the coveted Taser. There is a belief among some that the Taser fills in a fuzzy little gap in the use of force continuum. With its popularity and its actual safety record comes a level of comfort and dependance. Along comes excessive use.<BR/><BR/>While the Taser is a useful tool for the policeman who doesn't want to strike a bad guy with a baton or can't spray them with pepper spray, it must be used when the circumstances would not call for the use of a lower level of force, such as an escort hold, pressure on a pain sensitive area, etc. Going limp is a SCREAM to take advantage and cuff the guy before he escalates to a brawl. Him being seated and limp is even better if he is to be arrested. <BR/><BR/>If he was Tased and there was no intention of him being arrested, there certainly are some questions to be asked. <BR/><BR/>I nice option on the newer Tasers is a built in video camera which captures a subject's actions prior to application. <BR/><BR/>Tasers are a good tool in a responsible policeman's hand if he is trained and has adequate supervision.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164246053702707762006-11-22T18:40:00.000-07:002006-11-22T18:40:00.000-07:00I have images of Rome flowing through my mind when...I have images of Rome flowing through my mind whenever the words “immigrants,” “military,” and “war” appear in the same paragraph in a column or during a discussion. Rome increasingly used mercenaries during the twilight era of the empire and I view our use of immigrants as cannon fodder for imperial warmongering also as mercenaries. And, IF they survive the imperial adventures, to receive a fast-track to citizenship is also very similar to what Rome did during their latter days.<BR/><BR/>You’re one of the few that make a <I>critical</I> distinction between law enforcement and the military. Alleged criminals are not the same as genuine enemy combatants! But, we all know how the term “enemy combatant” is becoming hackneyed to the point that it’s meaningless since anyone and everyone can be so designated at the Führer’s discretion. There’s indeed supposed to be a difference between law enforcement and the military and the Regime has gradually been combining the two in terms of arms, tactics, and mindsets not to mention increased centralization.<BR/><BR/>I also can see in this the log-in-the-eye principle you mentioned as well. Ian Smith, the former prime minister of the former Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), was often savagely criticized by the various U.S. administrations about the alleged mistreatment of blacks in that country. I’ve heard that he said at some point something to the tune of, “What about the Indians? Before berating me for my dirty house, clean your own bloody house.” Later on, of course, South Africa became the prime target and we all know what happened to it.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I don’t know if what he was alleged to have said was true or not but, if he indeed said such, it would be dead right. Americans manage to always see a twig inserted into another’s eye, while half-blinded by the log crammed into their own eye.<BR/><BR/>On another note, I’ve noticed an ominous trend on the booby these days. There seems to be an endless parade of pro-police documentaries SWAT, COPS, Shootouts, Car Chases, Most Scariest…[insert activity], etc., etc., ad nauseam. Yes, COPS has been on the booby for years, but it just seems that there's now a plethora of COPS-like shows on the booby, many more so than in the past. I think these programs are produced for the implied purpose of subduing the commoner mind and to accede to to the state’s preeminence and power without question.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, some would view that as a bit overblown and paranoid, but that’s how I see it.dixiedoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09845646940134894119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164243687841857452006-11-22T18:01:00.000-07:002006-11-22T18:01:00.000-07:00A trip to less-lethal.org would reveal that the ta...A trip to less-lethal.org would reveal that the tasers in use by our police forces are not "non-lethal" weapons, but "less-lethal."zchris63http://www.blogger.com/profile/15044325194992357871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164223485411033072006-11-22T12:24:00.000-07:002006-11-22T12:24:00.000-07:00will,dolt! that's wat i get for not reading the a...will,<BR/><BR/>dolt! that's wat i get for not reading the article all the way through. mea culpa.rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32869165.post-1164220394402272672006-11-22T11:33:00.000-07:002006-11-22T11:33:00.000-07:00hey will,did you read this one? 92 year old woman...hey will,<BR/><BR/>did you read this one? 92 year old woman shot to death by plain clothed narc agents after they kicked down her door.<BR/><BR/>http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/21/D8LHSRR01.html<BR/><BR/>this is getting pathetic. how much you wanna bet NOTHING happens to these guys!!! war on drugs my foot!rickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12473173027048173880noreply@blogger.com