Comments on Pro Libertate: The Hive Mind

It isn't Will's duty to leave the Mormon world rel...

2008-03-26T07:16:00.000-06:00

It isn't Will's duty to leave the Mormon world religion alone; it's his biblical mandate to refute its heretical doctrines (Titus 1:9) and to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to us long ago (Jude 3) of which Hades' gates shall NOT overpower (Matthew 16:18).
Institute of Biblical Defense
Seattle, WA

Will,Your opinons on Mormons and Mormonism should ...

2007-12-20T12:11:00.000-07:00

Will,

Your opinons on Mormons and Mormonism should be couched with the statement that you are indeed an exmo malcontent. You have the spirit of Judas about you and I have lived to see you leave the church as well as split the John Birch Society down theological lines. Your bitterness has led my father, a lifetime member of the JBS who worked as a coordinator in Idaho before you could pronounce the hallowed name of Robert Welch, to part ways and start working with other groups. You are correct that many LDS folks are severely misinformed when it comes to politics, including some of its leaders. Your assertion about hive mentality is no more than a stereotype furthered by those who condescendingly put themselves out as a voice of reason. You are one of those. The only thing uglier than your egotism is your bile that you spew at us.

Lest you claim that I don't know you, I will let you know that I sat through some of your Sunday School and Priesthood lessons in a mostly newlywed ward in Orem. They were some of the most interesting and enlightening lessons I had ever partaken of. That is why I know that you were once endowed with a teaching spirit and you have turned from it like a Pharisee for the praise of men. You are Judas. You wanted the Church to come out in some sort of militaristic fashion to defend your political stances just as Judas wanted from the Savior. It wasn't his function then and it isn't the Churches function now to comment politically. You know this but have turned away. Make sure you have those 30 pieces of silver with you when you when you die. I'm sure the Savior will be proud of them when you lay them at his feet.

You are an amazing intellect and well read to be sure, but you have sold your birthright for a mess of pottage. I am not asking you return to the church (even though it will always accept you) I am asking you to leave it alone. Not for me, not for the church, but for your own embitteed soul.

Contact me anytime you would like to gnash your teeth on something.

Eric A. Thomas
Lehi, Utah
jenneric630@yahoo.com

Enjoyed your article. Personally, I am a Mormon a...

2007-05-24T11:34:00.000-06:00

Enjoyed your article. Personally, I am a Mormon and not a supporter of the war or war in general. I do not feel that my church itself supports war either though many of its members do. Our doctrine asks us only to obey and sustain the laws of the land but I certainly understand what you mean about Utah being a breeding ground for groupthink which is why I have such misgivings about moving there again, which I will probably do this summer.

Arne, Gordon B. Hinckley's public remarks about th...

2006-09-01T07:02:00.000-06:00

Arne, Gordon B. Hinckley's public remarks about the "War on Terror," including the Iraq campaign, have been masterpieces of Clintonian dissimulation -- an expression I use to describe a tactic, not necessarily the moral character of the man employing it.

He has eschewed clear, declarative language on the issue -- whatever happened to letting one's "yea" be "yea," and his "nay" be "nay"? -- preferring instead to express his support obliquely. This way it is both unmistakable now, and conveniently deniable later.

It's interesting to contrast Hinckley's evasiveness with the late John Paul II's clear, cogent, and compelling opposition to the Iraq war. His was no uncertain trumpet. (I offer this assessment as someone who is neither Catholic nor ever shall be.)

Following the ceremony in which he was awarded the presidential medal, Pres. Hinckley made a point of distancing himself from John Paul II's position. As reported by the June 24, 2004 Deseret News: "When reporters told him that Pope John Paul II had said he was troubled by the Iraqi war when he received his [presidential] medal, President Hinckley said, `Well, he may be troubled by the war in Iraq, but he cannot discount the bravery of the men and women who at the behest of the commander in chief are there in the cause of freedom.'"

That's the voice of a politician, not a prophet. Hinckley got in touch with his inner Sean Hannity, spitting out a slurry of pre-digested soundbites, stiff-arming a man of peace while sucking up to a powerful warmonger.

Besides, saying that Bush's war has anything to do with freedom is an objective lie.

True, it would have been impolite for Hinckley to criticize the murderer who had just draped a bauble around his neck, but then again the prophets described in the Bible didn't place much stock in good manners when there were terrible truths to be told.

That helps explain why Elijah wasn't singled out for honors from Ahab and Jezebel, for example. Prophets didn't do that sort of thing, back when there were prophets (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Hi WillRegarding your quote from a blogger in Zion...

2006-08-31T23:35:00.000-06:00

Hi Will
Regarding your quote from a blogger in Zions Camp, I remember the Gen Conf in fall of 2001 when Pres Hinckley said that he supported the President but I don't think he has ever issued a statement that he supports the Iraq war. I haven't seen it if it exists, and would like to. But if it doesn't exist then this member is falsely extending Hinckley's statement with a fantasy assumption of his own.

all,you all bring up some interesteing points.will...

2006-08-31T17:33:00.000-06:00

all,

you all bring up some interesteing points.

will, the piece you added was amazing. it reminds me of samuel telling the israelites what their first king would be like. and then after saying they still wanted a king that would be very bad, getting told again by God what else he would do...and then they still wanted a king. it's simply amazing that times have not changed, and that a person, even a group of people would follow sometone even though in their heart they know that that person is wrong. all i can say is is "wow".

Contemporary Americans have no such excuse, yet we...

2006-08-31T12:19:00.000-06:00

Contemporary Americans have no such excuse, yet we're behaving much the same way. THAT's what terrifies me. Imagine how much worse things will become if -- rather, when -- the consumer economy collapses and we catch the blow-back provoked by Busholini's wars of aggression.... [emphasis mine]

That's because in the words of Francis Bacon, "Prosperity doth best discover vice; but adversity doth best discover virtue."

Naturally, I don't know precisely what Mussolini himself had in mind by that statement of "mankind's growing tired of liberty," but you seem to be linking it to adversity, which I don't believe was true at all. They had already lost the virtue during their years of prosperity relative to the rest of the world, even America pre-WWI. And their arrogance in that era was legion. Still, the prosperity they enjoyed in that era was nothing like the level of prosperity and extreme extravagance Americans have enjoyed uninterrupted for decades since WWII with absolutely no temperance to speak of. That formula is absolutely toxic if/when tribulation comes as it inevitably will.

Though the Europeans were "battered, impoverished, and demoralized" after WWII especially, and to some degree after WWI, they had been prosperous and even pomp for many years prior to WWI erupting, and not battered, impoverished, and demoralized in the slightest. Civilian men and women were exuberantly marching alongside the troops on the streets of Berlin "on their first mile to Paris" in 1914, lauding WAR and having a lovefest over what the commoners of the respective nations at the time thought would surely be an easy victory! IOW, the virtue had already largely disappeared by the time the Great War began and, of course, by the time it ended what virtue there had been prior to the war had virtually disappeared altogether. It was only after WWII that the European populations were in such a condition you describe.

For America, on the other hand, it will indeed be MUCH worse because in addition to livin' large in a faux and arrogant sense of prosperity in recent years, but after WWII a real prosperity that trumped every nation in the world precisely and only because we weren't battered, demoralized, and impoverished! We've experienced no adversity on even a picoscale (sic) of what Europeans experienced in the first half of the 20th century.

Had we collectively as a nation experienced extreme adversities at various times since WWII, it would of served to help us rediscover virtue and/or retain what we already possessed. And, at the very least, mitigate, temper or even subdue the reaction a collapse of the economy would no doubt induce. But, this country has never experienced any meaningful adversity! Americans are absolutely clueless and have no conception whatsoever of what it's like having our cities bombed continually day after day (London), firebombed (Dresden), dealing with real foreign occupiers (all major combatants, except the United States, naturally), being nuked (in the case of Japan), or the "Rape of New York City" (in the case of Nanking in China from 1937-45), etc., etc.

As the old adage goes, the more at ease, comfortable, and arrogant they are, the harder will be the fall.

America isn't above and beyond it all. So it will be with America when that fateful day arrives, Will.

Arne, delighted as I am that you retain your indep...

2006-08-31T08:22:00.000-06:00

Arne, delighted as I am that you retain your independence of mind, you have probably had the same experiences I have in trying to encourage LDS friends and family to look critically at the Iraq war. For too many of them, the mental portcullis slammed shut when President Hinckley pronounced his benediction -- hedged, equivocal, and allusive as it was -- on the war. Nothing more need be said.

This morning a good friend in Utah referred me to a thread on "Zion's Camp" -- an online discussion board for LDS Patriot activists -- that contains more than a few museum-quality specimens of the cultivated deference to leaders I described in my post.

Here's one:

"Why did our prophet tell the Saints in conference that we as Americans stand solidly behind our President in this war on terror against al-queda and its operations and the war in Iraq was just an outgrowth and continuation of this war on terrorism? The prophet said that he had prayed and pondered much concerning his remarks to the Saints. If the prophet felt that this war on terrorism had extended into Iraq and that we as Americans needed to support our President on this decision to go into Iraq and eliminate Hussein and fight the terrorist factions there then that is good enough for me.

When the prophet speaks in conference concerning a principle then the debate ends for me. I know that this has caused many who disagree with the decision to go into Iraq a lot of consternation but I have had to accept that the prophet understands this issue and feels in his heart that we need to unite with the President in the decision made to go in.... I guess if President Hinckley has an opinion that he expresses in conference to the Saints I tend to weigh that opinion very strongly before I decide that my opinions are more valid....I hear LDS patriots all the time say that President Hinckley was wrong in this and that He just missed the boat in his support for President Bush because they believe that the President is the real Gadianton that needs to be ferreted out. I am not at a sufficient spiritual level yet to second guess the prophet and label him uninformed on these issues so I will just stay in the safe zone and go with Him on these conflicts."

Seek the safety of the Collective by deferring to the leader: This is the Hive Mind par excellence.
And it's the preponderant mindset among conservative Mormons of my acquaintance, tragically.

Dr. Roberts, the persistence of statism among Morm...

2006-08-31T08:09:00.000-06:00

Dr. Roberts, the persistence of statism among Mormons is nearly as puzzling to me as the cognate attitude among Jews.

Brother Dixiedog, are you familiar with Mussolini's statement, "mankind has grown tired of liberty"? The European populations Il Duce was referring to at the time had been left battered, impoverished, and demoralized by what may be the most unjustified and destructive of which we have record, and they were ready simply to give up.

Contemporary Americans have no such excuse, yet we're behaving much the same way. THAT's what terrifies me. Imagine how much worse things will become if -- rather, when -- the consumer economy collapses and we catch the blow-back provoked by Busholini's wars of aggression....

Arne, I appreciate your detailed and thoughtful comments, and I'll reply to them in a separate post.

Not surprisingly, it's yet another telltale sign o...

2006-08-30T23:45:00.000-06:00

Not surprisingly, it's yet another telltale sign of either the folks' total moral ambivalence or an irrational love affair with the leadership principle (führerprinzip) manifested currently in the form of George Bush. Since they are mutually inclusive traits, probably both.

I mean when the media, in this case the Deseret Morning News, can overtly state and confess to, without much tongue in cheek in the process, the deceptions that were used to get us into this war while simultaneously implying, "So what?!", it signifies more to me of the collective commoners' state of mind and, in essence, moral decay than anything spectacularly unexpected within the leader(s) or media maven(s) who happen to be tossing this bilge out.

Unfortunately, the moral of this entire piece that I gather is that when the commoner cannot discern what's right, wise, prudent he naturally defers to the leader, or "the expert" to make that determination for him/her. It's how con artists have made their way through life since antiquity, whether the con artists in question were auto mechanics, politicians, whatever doesn't matter. When their respective target is ignorant of the moral, legal, mechanical, scientific subject, those cons are deemed "the experts" and the target allows them to make the "right, wise, prudent" decision for the target.

It's a sad state of affairs, eh, Will?

Hi WillI am an active Mormon and I have never felt...

2006-08-30T18:40:00.000-06:00

Hi Will
I am an active Mormon and I have never felt like I have had to bow down to Bush because of my Church affiliation. A lot of Mormons are deceived by Bush for sure. But there are a portion of LDS people, probably not large, who understand the evil new world order and how it is manifested in the Bush administration.

Yes, we are supposed to support Pres Hinckley as the inspired leader of our Church. And I do, but again I have never felt pressure from the leadership of the Church to support Bush with no alternatives. We are allowed freedom of choice in whom we vote for.

Here is my take on where the Church stands politically.

If you look back into the 1950-1980 era there were many articles by Church leaders about how bad communism, socialism is and that we must reject it. Sunday school manuals and Priesthood manuals were full of the same admonitions and that we should support our inspired US Constitution.

But during this time also, more and more of the membership was being deceived by the political world to accept more and more of the principles of collectivism. And thus the articles previously mentioned as good, started to be appear less and less until now if you find one it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Yes the Church has invited many of the new world order types to dine at its table. But this is an era when the Church has to make friends with Mammon in order to have the world open its doors to the Church's missionaries.

And because of the deception of its members by the new world order, the Church has to be careful so that it can reach all good men and women and bring them into the Church without losing them , which taking on the NWO would do, and would also alienate the membership in general.

Pres Hinckley did say this in the Ensign magazine in Aug 2005:

"The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today's society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.
I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

The God of heaven spoke to these people of the Americas through prophets, telling them where true security could be found: 'Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ. '(Ether 2:12)."

In the second paragraph in the above quote we have Pres Hinckley identifying those evil things that the new world order is engaged in. He is not telling us to accept those things, he is identifying them. I think this is quite a statement considering my above statement that the Church is currently making friends with Mammon for missionary purposes.

Pres Benson during the late 1980s told us that a secret combination was taking over America and the rest of the world. And he also chastised the members for supporting this secret combination.

And of course the Book of Mormon is full of verses about secret combinations and this book is compiled for our day so that this information can be used to our benefit.

Yes it bugs me how many Mormons don't have a clue as to how a secret combination has taken over our government. But I consider most people in the world to be sheep and unfortunately now the globalist/socialists have their attention.........which shouldn't be happening in this Church since they have years and years of warnings.

But I feel the Lord's spirit here, and so I try to educate as many people as will listen about the conspiracy running our government, believing exposure to be the beginning of reform.

sincerely

Arne

Will:After reading Bushman's excellent new biograp...

2006-08-30T17:20:00.000-06:00

Will:

After reading Bushman's excellent new biography of Joseph Smith I was stunned by what I had not known about the official, state sanctioned persecution of the early LDS church in Ohio and Illinois. The collective memory of Mormons must be poor indeed. Have they forgotten that men who were pledged to uphold the Constitution are the ones who persecuted their fathers?!