Comments on Pro Libertate: The Fatal Embrace, Revisited

"I'll freely admit that I'm not an intellectual He...

2009-01-06T18:43:00.000-07:00

"I'll freely admit that I'm not an intellectual Hercules by any measure, as I don't hide under the cloak of a Plato..."

Dixiedog, I think you're a poet. You sound like you've been reading Coleridge all night, or one of those old English writers who referred to myth.

Re the original post: I read a library copy of Ginsburg's _Jews and the State_ but I don't have a copy now. From memory, he seemed to accurately predict the Bush administration -- Jews got into power and pushed the system to heavily favor particular interests -- such as David H. Brooks and his shoddy manufacturing. If Ginsburg's pattern repeats, the resulting crash will not be pleasant.

It's an interesting post -- I still need to go back and follow the links. Thanks.

Mr. Grigg,You are misinformed about Zionism. The r...

2007-03-22T00:51:00.000-06:00

Mr. Grigg,

You are misinformed about Zionism.
The recreation of a Jewish state is something that religious Jews pray for thrice daily.
Some of the early Zionists were religious Jews. I suggest that you look up Religious Zionism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Zionism

(As an aside, there is a third camp, Revisionist Zionists, the followers of Jabotinski. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Jabotinsky
The Socialists were never a majority and are not now even Zionists.)

The head of Zaka does not call for the end of Israel. In fact, he recently caused quite a stir, when he beat up the Rabbi who went over the Iranian Holocaust Denial conference.

will, my one major adjustment to your,as always, ...

2006-09-15T11:17:00.000-06:00

will, my one major adjustment to your,as always, erudite piece is that it sets up a trilateral{pardon the pun] choice of "religious Torah Judaism,cultural Judaism,or Zionism as the worship of a state" The reader may fail to realize that their is a hybrid choice;to wit, the torah commands the Jewish people to "occupy" the land that the lord deeded the Jewish people as an "eternal covenant from generation to generation" Most people fail to realize that we have here two opposing forces of Zionism. One is a New World Order/Trotskyite/Neo-con Zionism which is the arch enemy of Torah Zionism. The other force,which includes me as an adherent, is best described as Torah Zionism[redundant phrase actually} Neo-cons only support the quisling traitor leaders of Israel[sounds like an equally accurate descriptions of U.S leaders]They do not support the Israel of the Torah. Finally, it is simply inaccurate to refer to Arabs as Palestinians. When the arab nations controlled much of pre-1967 Israel , the only Palestinians were JEWs. In the prodigious book, "From Time Immemorial", author Joan Peters quotes Arab leaders admitting that the concept of an Arab Palestinian is a concocted strategic belly whip to use against Jews and their G-d given land. My love and admiration overflows for the modern Macabees;, the Torah Zionists of Gaza, Judea and Samaria. Remember them; the ones who were thrown out of their homes and beaten to a pulp by the filthy traitors who run Israel. If America was "Zionist occupied territory" Americans would have been thrown out of Texas.Obviously, the inverse is the case.

After all, the Word says Jerusalem would be a cup ...

2006-08-30T00:55:00.000-06:00

After all, the Word says Jerusalem would be a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone to the nations and, voilà, so it is.

Just a side note to the above, it's interesting that Jerusalem was of no interest to Muslims prior to the '67 war when Israel captured it, forget the oft-heard claim today of it being the "third holiest" site in Islam.

As someone who IS a Preterist, I would like to go ...

2006-08-30T00:50:00.000-06:00

As someone who IS a Preterist, I would like to go on record as saying that having a preteristic understanding of New Testament eschatology does not correlate to being anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic.

I understand, dr roberts. It was not my intent to imply anti-Semitism in any way, if you thought as much, simply that I did not adhere to the doctrine (in terms of prophesies being fulfilled already by 70 A.D. rather than with Jews themselves) and that it contrasts with dispensationalism, nothing more.

However, many who are preterists are also adherents of replacement theology (Israel replaced by the Church under the new covenant) and that doctrine in particular, on the other hand, I could never accept.

Thankfully, doctrinal variations on the subject of prophecy is not critical in terms of ones salvation so we all can manage those differences without distorting the salvation message itself.

In any event, I suspected that by mentioning it it would bring forth a reponse thereto ;).

Thanks Will for your response.I think that first o...

2006-08-30T00:23:00.000-06:00

Thanks Will for your response.

I think that first of all, Israel needs to establish itself as a "normal" country, which it CANNOT do until it is no longer a client state of Washington. I'm convinced that our entanglement in the region has Sugar Daddy and Big Brother not only impedes any progress toward peace, but is actually intended to prevent it.

I agree, and I think America needs to halt the subsidies and foreign aid. Yes, I believe that Washington (as well as the European) elitists thrive on the continuation of the conflict. Your response clarified to a large degree your overall points made in the post.

Even so, the fact is that the Muslim world, and increasingly the West as well, desires that Israel not exist. After all, the Word says Jerusalem would be a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone to the nations and, voilà, so it is.

On the matter of Dispensationalism, as I mentioned, you simply peaked my curiosity. Thanks for your response on this particular especially.

As someone who IS a Preterist, I would like to go ...

2006-08-29T09:50:00.000-06:00

As someone who IS a Preterist, I would like to go on record as saying that having a preteristic understanding of New Testament eschatology does not correlate to being anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic.

Thanks to everyone for contributing your comments!...

2006-08-29T09:01:00.000-06:00

Thanks to everyone for contributing your comments! I really appreciate it!

Brother Dixiedog --

There's nothing exceptionally wrong or immoral about the fact that Jewish Israeli statists to act on their infirm assumptions.

I do think, however, that there is something tragically ironic in the fact that the State supposedly created to preserve the Jews threatens to do what their historic enemies -- from Haman to Hitler -- failed to do: Destroy their identity as a discrete people defined by a covenant with God.

And I think Jews who look to the Israeli state for protection they've placed themselves in a uniquely self-defeating position, since 1) the historic experience of Jews should be enough to convince them that the State is their mortal enemy; and 2) this particular State is run by people who have redundantly shown that they is no betrayal of which they're not capable.

What should they do? I think that first of all, Israel needs to establish itself as a "normal" country, which it CANNOT do until it is no longer a client state of Washington. I'm convinced that our entanglement in the region has Sugar Daddy and Big Brother not only impedes any progress toward peace, but is actually intended to prevent it.

As to my views of Dispensationalism -- I'm not a Preterist, either. My views are still not fully formed on the subject, and as I admitted in my introductory post, I've got a lot to learn about practically everything.

I do find it peculiar that many good and decent people look on the squalid, UN-created socialist monstrosity called Israel and profess to believe that THIS was what the prophets, saints, and martyrs of the ages prayed for -- and that Christians have a duty, transcending their allegiance to our country, to uphold the interests of that state.

I don't exaggerate: I'm aware of Christian congregations in Indiana (I've visited a few) where congregants pledge allegiance to the Israeli flag, and sing "Hatikva." And Hagee has taken to wearing a Jewish prayer shawl and insists that the question we will have to answer on Judgment Day is: What did you do for the Jews (and, presumably, for the State of Israel)?

One reason I highlighted the case of Yehuda Meshi-Zahav is to underscore the fact that Jews have been living in the Holy Land for generations; they were gathering, one of a family, two of a city, as it were, before the socialist pretenders who created the modern State of Israel got into the act (Herzl and his successors originally weren't interested in Palestine, as it happens).

Yehuda is of the opinion that his inheritance as a Jew depends on his relationship with God, not his subservience to a state. I sure wish that perspective were contagious.

I agree that abstract statism is pure totalitarian...

2006-08-28T23:10:00.000-06:00

I agree that abstract statism is pure totalitarianism, but after that long admittedly concise argument opposing abstract statism, whether Jewish-centric or otherwise, the substance and meat of the matter of dealing with statism in practical terms is still scarce therein. What, pray tell, do you think the Jews in the state (sigh) of Israel are to do? Simply leave? Stay? Give up? Fight (oh yeah, that would be for the state)? What?

Since the world at large has embraced statism or is embracing it; Jews simply have more experience at it and have been statist-minded for centuries for precisely the reasons you gave in your argument. So, what's so surprising that they are continuing the status quo, but to the Jewish state rather than a Gentile state? With that in mind, why is it more radical, terrible, and evil for Jewish statists in Israel to act in accordance with that mindset, but not a big deal, terrible, or wrong for anyone elsewhere in the world to act thusly? Again, the cosmopolitan mindset is today overwhelmingly statist.

Indeed, the state of Israel was formed in 1948 by the godless statists collectively gathered in the U.N. Jewish atheists were the main catalyst agitating it into fruition. And the impetus for pointing this out conclusively would be? A new hitherto unknown revelation? I suppose it should mean that it wasn't meant to be or wasn't part of God's overall plan to gather them out of the nations and bring them back to their land through whatever means He pleased, in this case, the reformation of the state of Israel? God accomplishes his purposes through the works of the wicked as well as the saints. It's just that the saints do it willingly and knowingly and the wicked do not. Nevertheless, the wicked (whether Jew or Gentile) in the end can and inevitably will in some manner accomplish His ultimate purpose to further His grand plan among the nations, if not His personal will for their individual lives.

I'll freely admit that I'm not an intellectual Hercules by any measure, as I don't hide under the cloak of a Plato by presenting in "broken record" fashion other folks' written intellectual appetizers, such as "As Plato [or insert your fav philosopher here] said..." Not that I necessarily don't ever do this, since after all the sages of yore provide many timeless and wise beatitudes and maxims. I rather like to look at situations in distilled raw logic and reason to think of a given situation or scenario for myself to determine what my view of it will be; tempered, of course, with God's Word.

And just to be unquestionably clear, it wasn't your disdain for Hagee that peaked by curiosity, since Hagee is too charismatic and, to be polite, too loud and alarmist in a most unhealthy way for my tastes. It was, instead, your mention of Dispensationalism and your disinclination towards that view that did.

As for me, I'm not an adherent of Preterism.

I think this might very well be the number one issue that's dividing the church at large today that contributes greatly to it having almost zero impact in the Old and New world anymore. As for the Third World, however, it's another matter altogether, a raging fire in fact.

It's an unfortunate reality today, and as evidenced by observing the panoramic landscape, not really in any way unexpected or unusual.

I just found about about this blog today; for two ...

2006-08-28T22:33:00.000-06:00

I just found about about this blog today; for two weeks I assumed you were just on vacation from Birch Blog. Now I have to catch up on what I missed. I appreciate that comments are allowed here.

Like Ann, I feel better informed by this post. It provides substance to my own thoughts of this tragic situation.

will,i share your views...especially the one about...

2006-08-28T19:49:00.000-06:00

will,

i share your views...especially the one about an international army sitting outside of israel's borders. now, i love the french, but they don't have the best history of supporting jewish causes. so having them head the mission in lebanon might not be a good idea. i mean, given french history and the country's anti-semetism, even when i lived there more than 10 years ago,...i mean....who's lame brained idea was it to put them in charge. i mean, if you wanted a european nation to lead a massacre against the jews in israel, then the choice of the french is spot on. now i'm not saying all frenchmen, or even all those in govt, would do this, but what i am saying is that france has a high undercurrent of anti-semetism that pervades its society. and when it sticks its head out, it gets oooogly!

Thanks for your piece. I feel better informed.

2006-08-28T18:16:00.000-06:00

Thanks for your piece. I feel better informed.

Will:Superb article on a very important and releva...

2006-08-28T13:25:00.000-06:00

Will:

Superb article on a very important and relevant topic. There are far too many "blogs" out there that address this matter with a none-too-subtle anti-Semitism. Your piece honestly avoids such abberations and manages to raise some key issues regarding Israel and the fool hardy support of that State by silly dispensationalists like Hagee, Van Impe, etc ad nauseaum.
---Charles